[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

  • From: Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 10:26:19 +1100

Dear Scholars,

The following might be helpful to anyone who has difficulty in
distinguishing nominal groups from adverbial groups.

Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-22):

The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be
accompanied by modifying elements. …

Premodifiers are *grammatical items* like *not* and *rather* and *so*; *there
is no lexical premodification in the adverbial group*. …

The items serving as Premodifiers are adverbs belonging to one of three
types – polarity (*not*), comparison (*more, less; as, so*) and
intensification. …

Postmodification is of *one type only, namely comparison*.


[image: 1.png]


ChEeRS,
ChRIS


On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 08:25, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Rosemary

Is it the nom gp serving as Premodifier that makes them look like nom gps?

Here with just adverbs...

*Long ago and so far away....*

long

ago

and

so

far

away

Time





Place





adv gp





adv gp





b

a



b



a

adv

adv



adv

adv

adv



Here with nom gp as Premodifier

some

4,600

years

ago

Time







adv gp







b





a

nom gp







Num



Thing



b

a







PS

Can you give us some Old English clauses with Time in accusative and
dative case?

Many thanks

David



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Rosemary Huisman <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 10:53 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Hi again - as in my first post - a circumstance of time. It's realized by
the nominal group ("some 4,600 years ago"), as is usual for constituents of
temporal meaning in the English clause. In Old English, such meanings were
typically realized by a nominal group in the accusative case (or
occasionally - confused through Latin?- by the dative). Perhaps because of
their frequent use such realization without preposition for temporal
meanings has persisted into Modern English, whereas other circumstantial
meanings are usually realized by a prepositional phrase or adverbial group
(as was already becoming established in Old English, ie pre- 1100).

Rosemary.














------------------------------

*From:* asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Annabelle Lukin <annabelle.lukin@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 6 February 2024 7:07 PM
*To:* asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Love these messages - what kind of constituent is 'some 4,600 years ago'?
I've been debating this with one of my colleagues for a while now,

Cheers

Annabelle





*Annabelle Lukin (she, her, hers)*
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Department HDR Director





*Department of Linguistics*
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------------------------------

*From:* asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 6 February 2024 6:21 PM
*To:* asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Agreed Shooshi... bit of indeterminacy here between Means and Place



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Shoshana Dreyfus <shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 6:07 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Thinking more about this – maybe the last circ isn’t causative. And in
fact maybe that’s the point – construe this intransitively so they don’t
even have to engage with whether anything caused the earth to form...



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Shoshana Dreyfus <shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 5:46 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

This email contains suspicious characteristics and has originated from
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guidance if you have verified with the sender and know the content is safe.


------------------------------

It’s an interesting way of expressing how things happened, isn’t it? I
love these clauses – representing events as if things happened all by
themselves (ie intransitively), though the causative bit is there, just
relegated to the end of the clause in the circumstance, so yes need both
transitivity AND ergativity to understand this one:



The earth

formed

some 4,600 years ago

from a vast cloud of gas and dust



Actor

Process: material

Circ: temp loc

Circ: manner/means

Medium

Process







And probably a look at the periodicity/thematic development of this text
would be useful because maybe the writer wants to keep the Theme constant
so has structured the clause in this way to do so.





*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Rosemary Huisman <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Monday, 5 February 2024 at 8:23 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Sensible thoughts, David.

A causative transitivity analysis might be more helpful: "Rocks" is Medium.



Table below is a bit misaligned!

Rosemary



IFG(2014) 5.2.3

...of ‘material’ clauses.1 The most general contrast is between (i)
‘creative’ clauses, where the Actor or Goal is construed as being brought
into existence as the process unfolds, and (ii) ‘transformative’ ones,
where a pre-existing Actor or Goal is construed as being transformed as
theprocess unfolds: see Figure 5-10. Examples are given in Table 5-4.



Table 5-4 type of doing: ‘creative’/‘transformative’





Creative

Transformative

intransitive

transitive

intransitive

transitive

*what happened*

*Whathappened? –Rocksformed.*

*Whathappened? –The pressureformed rocks*

*What happened –The rocksbroke (intosmall pieces)*

*What happened –The pressure broke therocks (intosmall*

*pieces).*

*Whathappened –He ran(away).*

*What happened*

*–* *Shechased* *him(away).*

*what happenedto X?*

*What happenedto*

*rocks? – Theyformed*

*Whathappened torocks? –*Thepressureformed hem.*

*Whathappened tothe rocks? –They broke(into smallpieces).*

*Whathappened tohe rocks? –The pressurebroke them(into smallpieces).*

*what did X do*



*What did thepressure*

*do? – It formedrocks.*



*What did thepressure do? – Itbroke the rocks(into pieces).*

*What did hedo? – He ran(away).*

*What did shedo?*

*–* *Shechased* *him(away).*

*what did X do toY?*



*What did thepressure do torocks? – *Itformed them.*



*What did thepressure do tothe rocks? – Itbroke them (intopieces)*



*What did she do to him? – She chasedhim (away).*










------------------------------

*From:* asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of David Banks <david.banks@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Monday, 5 February 2024 7:40 PM
*To:* asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Hello Rosemay and Annabelle,



If "formed" is a creative process, and "the earth" is what is created, it
can't exist before the process takes place. So it can't be the actor of
that process. My memory tells me that somewhere (but I haven't got a
refrerence to hand) Halliday talks about an "effected" - the participant
created by a process (as opposed to an "affected" - the participant altered
by a process). To avoid any confusion, with my (non-anglophone) students I
used to use the term "result". I would suggest that "the earth" is
effected/result.



All the best,



David


------------------------------

*De: *"Rosemary Huisman" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*À: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Envoyé: *Lundi 5 Février 2024 07:47:08
*Objet: *[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Hi Annabelle -   an effort:



The earth            Actor

formed                 Creative process, intransitive

some 4,600 years ago                             circumstance of Location:
time

from a vast cloud of gas and dust.   circumstance of Manner



See IFG(2014)

Table 5-4 on Creative processes

Table 5.28 on Types of circumstantial element.



More cheers,

Rosemary (Huisman).


------------------------------

*From:* asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Annabelle Lukin <annabelle.lukin@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Monday, 5 February 2024 11:55 AM
*To:* asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [asflanet] grammar analysis only



Dear colleagues,



I'm keen to hear thoughts on the analysis of this clause:



The earth formed some 4,600 years ago from a vast cloud of gas and dust.



Cheers

Annabelle



*Annabelle Lukin (she, her, hers)*
Associate Professor Linguistics

Department HDR Director





*Department of Linguistics*
Level 5, 12 Second Way Room 507
Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia

Climate Crisis: the Magnitude of the Challenge
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Latest book

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and Description. Singapore: Springer.
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Latest book chapter

Lukin, Annabelle and Butt, David. 2022. Neurosemiotics and ideology: a
linguistic view. In García, Adolfo, and Ibañez, Águstin (eds) Routledge
Handbook of Semiotics and the Brain. Routledge: New York.
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/6XEPC3QNPBiXQ8rY3hEEv70?domain=routledge.com>



Latest journal article

Lukin, Annabelle, and Araújo e Castro, Rodrigo. 2022. Macquarie Laws of
War Corpus (MQLWC): design, construction and use. International Journal for
the Semiotics of Law. 35(5). 2167-2186.
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/GanOC4QOPEiz1jwAPi3qnJI?domain=link.springer.com>






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