Re further research...
Analyses like these are rough and ready....
[cid:image002.png@01DA59E6.C4C66F20]
Here’s a puzzle. Of these • units, which instantiates comparison,
intensification or negation?
not
so
very
much
more
easily
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Fester Bestertester
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2024 at 1:59 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Heh heh!
IFG at 30 paces...
Interestingly IFG contains many instances with adverb ago/away as Head and nom
gp as Premodifier but doesn't attempt to analyse them, even tho they are so
common. Of the three types of adv gp Premodifiers listed, they realise
[intensification] metaphorically (perhaps one of Whorf’s SAE cryptotypes). E.g.
[A close-up of a table Description automatically generated]
This area of grammar is opening up for research e.g.
Martin, J. R., Doran, Y. J., & Zhang, D. (2021). Nominal group grammar: System
and structure. Word, 67(3), 248-280.
best
Lester Scruggs
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2024 at 10:27 am
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Dear Scholars,
The following might be helpful to anyone who has difficulty in distinguishing
nominal groups from adverbial groups.
Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-22):
The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be accompanied
by modifying elements. …
Premodifiers are grammatical items like not and rather and so; there is no
lexical premodification in the adverbial group. …
The items serving as Premodifiers are adverbs belonging to one of three types –
polarity (not), comparison (more, less; as, so) and intensification. …
Postmodification is of one type only, namely comparison.
[cid:ii_lsazkl5y0]
ChEeRS,
ChRIS
On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 08:25, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Rosemary
Is it the nom gp serving as Premodifier that makes them look like nom gps?
Here with just adverbs...
Long ago and so far away....
long
ago
and
so
far
away
Time
Place
adv gp
adv gp
•
•
•
•
adv
adv
adv
adv
adv
Here with nom gp as Premodifier
some
4,600
years
ago
Time
adv gp
•
•
nom gp
Num
Thing
•
•
PS
Can you give us some Old English clauses with Time in accusative and dative
case?
Many thanks
David
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Rosemary Huisman
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 10:53 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Hi again - as in my first post - a circumstance of time. It's realized by the
nominal group ("some 4,600 years ago"), as is usual for constituents of
temporal meaning in the English clause. In Old English, such meanings were
typically realized by a nominal group in the accusative case (or occasionally -
confused through Latin?- by the dative). Perhaps because of their frequent use
such realization without preposition for temporal meanings has persisted into
Modern English, whereas other circumstantial meanings are usually realized by a
prepositional phrase or adverbial group (as was already becoming established in
Old English, ie pre- 1100).
Rosemary.
________________________________
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Annabelle Lukin <annabelle.lukin@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:annabelle.lukin@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 7:07 PM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Love these messages - what kind of constituent is 'some 4,600 years ago'? I've
been debating this with one of my colleagues for a while now,
Cheers
Annabelle
Annabelle Lukin (she, her, hers)
Associate Professor Linguistics
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<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 6:21 PM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Agreed Shooshi... bit of indeterminacy here between Means and Place
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Shoshana Dreyfus <shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 6:07 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Thinking more about this – maybe the last circ isn’t causative. And in fact
maybe that’s the point – construe this intransitively so they don’t even have
to engage with whether anything caused the earth to form...
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Shoshana Dreyfus <shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 5:46 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
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It’s an interesting way of expressing how things happened, isn’t it? I love
these clauses – representing events as if things happened all by themselves (ie
intransitively), though the causative bit is there, just relegated to the end
of the clause in the circumstance, so yes need both transitivity AND ergativity
to understand this one:
The earth
formed
some 4,600 years ago
from a vast cloud of gas and dust
Actor
Process: material
Circ: temp loc
Circ: manner/means
Medium
Process
And probably a look at the periodicity/thematic development of this text would
be useful because maybe the writer wants to keep the Theme constant so has
structured the clause in this way to do so.
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Rosemary Huisman
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2024 at 8:23 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Sensible thoughts, David.
A causative transitivity analysis might be more helpful: "Rocks" is Medium.
Table below is a bit misaligned!
Rosemary
IFG(2014) 5.2.3
...of ‘material’ clauses.1 The most general contrast is between (i) ‘creative’
clauses, where the Actor or Goal is construed as being brought into existence
as the process unfolds, and (ii) ‘transformative’ ones, where a pre-existing
Actor or Goal is construed as being transformed as theprocess unfolds: see
Figure 5-10. Examples are given in Table 5-4.
Table 5-4 type of doing: ‘creative’/‘transformative’
Creative
Transformative
intransitive
transitive
intransitive
transitive
what happened
Whathappened? –Rocksformed.
Whathappened? –The pressureformed rocks
What happened –The rocksbroke (intosmall pieces)
What happened –The pressure broke therocks (intosmall
pieces).
Whathappened –He ran(away).
What happened
– Shechased him(away).
what happenedto X?
What happenedto
rocks? – Theyformed
Whathappened torocks? –*Thepressureformed hem.
Whathappened tothe rocks? –They broke(into smallpieces).
Whathappened tohe rocks? –The pressurebroke them(into smallpieces).
what did X do
What did thepressure
do? – It formedrocks.
What did thepressure do? – Itbroke the rocks(into pieces).
What did hedo? – He ran(away).
What did shedo?
– Shechased him(away).
what did X do toY?
What did thepressure do torocks? – *Itformed them.
What did thepressure do tothe rocks? – Itbroke them (intopieces)
What did she do to him? – She chasedhim (away).
________________________________
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of David Banks <david.banks@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:david.banks@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, 5 February 2024 7:40 PM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Hello Rosemay and Annabelle,
If "formed" is a creative process, and "the earth" is what is created, it can't
exist before the process takes place. So it can't be the actor of that process.
My memory tells me that somewhere (but I haven't got a refrerence to hand)
Halliday talks about an "effected" - the participant created by a process (as
opposed to an "affected" - the participant altered by a process). To avoid any
confusion, with my (non-anglophone) students I used to use the term "result". I
would suggest that "the earth" is effected/result.
All the best,
David
________________________________
De: "Rosemary Huisman"
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
À: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Envoyé: Lundi 5 Février 2024 07:47:08
Objet: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only
Hi Annabelle - an effort:
The earth Actor
formed Creative process, intransitive
some 4,600 years ago circumstance of Location: time
from a vast cloud of gas and dust. circumstance of Manner
See IFG(2014)
Table 5-4 on Creative processes
Table 5.28 on Types of circumstantial element.
More cheers,
Rosemary (Huisman).
________________________________
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<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Annabelle Lukin <annabelle.lukin@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:annabelle.lukin@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, 5 February 2024 11:55 AM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] grammar analysis only
Dear colleagues,
I'm keen to hear thoughts on the analysis of this clause:
The earth formed some 4,600 years ago from a vast cloud of gas and dust.
Cheers
Annabelle
Annabelle Lukin (she, her, hers)
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