[alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program
- From: "Sixth Day Farm" <home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:35:17 -0400
That's a great idea Ted. Anything that leads to more certainty about the
results can't be bad. The DNA testing would need to be done on the actual
tissue sample however, and it would have to be done by the same lab doing
the histology, or the histology lab would have to send a piece to the DNA
testing lab. The tissue sample, in order to maintain its structural
integrity so that follicle counts, density or anything else can be
determined by viewing the histology, has to be placed in a fixative of some
kind as soon as it is taken. I don't know enough about the biochemistry of
DNA testing to know if the DNA test can be run on a sample that has been in
a fixative like formalin or not.
Wayne
-----Original Message-----
From: alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Theodore Chepolis
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 12:55 AM
To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program
Ian and Ruthanne,
Here's a thought which in practice may prove unwieldy and costly: what if
DNA testing were combined with the follicle test to ensure the sample
actually came from the identified stud? As you rightly pointed out, Ian,
this is not a "red under every bed" observation, but a suggestion to how the
process can maintain objectivity.
Take care, TED CHEPOLIS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Watt" <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 12:25 PM
Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program
> Ruthanne,
> Many thanks for your comments - I really appreciate them.
> I hadn't thought of the possible problems you raise but I do see where=20=
>
> someone can make a mountain out of a molehill. I must admit that I
tend=20=
>
> to disregard those who see a "red under every bed" mainly because
these=20=
>
> type of people spend a disproportionate amount of time protecting=20
> perceptions instead of getting on with a productive and happy life -=20
> their decision, their consequence. However, I do agree that they tends=20=
>
> to be very vocal and quite easily provide a perception of import that=20
> is not there.
> I think I can overcome the problem by defining an inspecting=20
> veterinarian as one not either in the employ of the participating=20
> breeder or the woner of the animal. I would be most reluctant to draw=20
> the line any further because, as you point out, there are plenty of=20
> related business transactions between people that make real distance=20
> really hard to achieve.
> I would rely instead, on the professionalism of the veterinarian=20
> reputation and qualification.
> The fact of the matter is that the name on the proforma is that of a=20
> professional veterinarian who has both a qualification and reputation=20
> to maintain. i trust that this is sufficient reason for those=20
> veterinarians who even sniff a conflict of interest will recuse=20
> themselves to maintain the integrity of the assessment.
> I personally would apply the same perspective to the treatment of=20
> judges at shows. This practice of isolating the judges before a show,=20
> during the show and also disallowing people who have dealt with the=20
> judge in the six months prior to the show exhibits, to me, a lack of=20
> maturity with both the proponents of this regime and the industry as a=20=
>
> whole that does not have enough faith in a person to extend them the=20
> courtesy of professional attitude and integrity.
> But that is another matter I guess!
> I hope this answers your question but if it doesn't and anyone else=20
> would like to comment, please do.
> Kind regards,
> Ian Watt
>
> On Sunday, Apr 18, 2004, at 09:29 US/Pacific, Ruthanne McCaslin wrote:
>
> > Ian,
> >
> > Your proposal sounds very promising. I am interested in=20
> > participating. I,
> > too, would like info on the reference lab for doing the biopsies as=20=
>
> > soon as
> > possible as we are starting to shear now.
> >
> > In the matter of transpaency, have you considered that in the US=20
> > there are
> > a significant number of alpaca breeders who are also veterinarians? =20=
>
> > This
> > could produce a percieved or real conflict of interest. Certainly I=20=
>
> > would
> > not think of doing the veterinary inspection on my own animals, and=20=
>
> > those I
> > have sold to others, but should I also exclude myself from doing=20
> > those of
> > other breeders with whom I do not have a business relationship?
What=20=
>
> > about
> > the friendships that develope at shows and confernces? Somehow in
the=20=
>
> > small
> > comunity of the alpaca world, it seems we are all conected. Also =
> what
> > about the larger farms who have a veterinarian or two on their staff?
> >
> > I think that most veterinarians are very objective and highly ethical
> > people, but there are perceptions to be addressed and the sour
grapes=20=
>
> > of
> > someone whose animal failed against someone else whose animal passed=20=
>
> > if,
> > say, the second breeder was the vet's best client and the first was=20=
>
> > six
> > months in arrears on his vet bills. Even if the vet was meticulously
> > impartial and the animal that passes deserved to pass and the animal=20=
>
> > that
> > failed deserved to fail, that has never yet stopped a determined=20
> > whiner.
> > Whiners are a very, very small percentage of the alpaca community, =20
> > who by
> > and large are the nicest folks on earth, but they tend to make=20
> > themselves
> > heard over the pleasantries of the majority.
> >
> > I am not trying to create problems here, just help you think ahead =
> and
> > prevent them. I totally agree that integrity, both real and=20
> > percieved, is
> > what creates the value in a program of this nature. I hope to hear=20
> > more
> > soon.
> >
> > Wishing you nothing but the best,
> >
> > Ruthanne
> >
> > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM
> > Promised Land Farm Alpacas
> > Chardon, Ohio
> > www.blackalpaca.com
> >
> >> From: Ian Watt <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Reply-To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program
> >> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:06:39 -0700
> >>
> >> Wayne,
> >> I did receive your earlier mail but then I went off to England for a
> >> couple of weeks!! Great trip travelling the canals of Shropshire and
> >> Wales in a narrow boat - guaranteed stress buster!
> >> I am awaiting a note from my Australian lab with all the details and
> >> will be incorporating them into the final release of the plan. I have
> >> had a good response from a very limited mail out and am confident =
> that
> >> it will appeal to those forward thinkers who want to work away from=20=
>
> >> the
> >> show circuit. I will let you know the details as soon as I have them =
> -
> >> hopefully later this week.
> >> The advance copies of the book have arrived and I am posting your =
> copy
> >> on Monday. It looks better than I had hoped which is both exciting =
> and
> >> a relief!
> >> Hope you are well.
> >> Cheers,
> >> Ian
> >> On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 05:58 US/Pacific, Sixth Day Farm wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Ian,
> >>>
> >>> I'm re-sending this as I never got a response about the lab doing =
> the
> >>> skin biopsies so I thought perhaps you didn't get the e-mail.
> >>>
> >>> Best Wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Wayne
> >>>
> >>> *****************************************************
> >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis "In the beginning, God
> >>> created.... "
> >>> =
> Genesis
> >>> 1:1
> >>>
> >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.sixthdayfarm.com
> >>>
> >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20
> >>> DOING
> >>> IT.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Sixth Day Farm [mailto:home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:27 PM
> >>> To: 'alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> >>> Subject: RE: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ian,
> >>>
> >>> I am getting ready to do biopsies at our shearing day in May. I have
> >>> everything I need to take the samples. I was going to send them to=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> histology lab at OSU for slides to be made and then read them =
> myself,
> >>> but would prefer to send them to a lab in the US that already
> >>> understands reading them for S/P ratio and density. Tell me about =
> the
> >>> processing you have available: how and where to send the samples,=20
> >>> cost,
> >>> and exactly how and what they will report. Thanks!
> >>>
> >>> Also, The G.A.I.N. will be up and running by June. Any of your list
> >>> members who want to send in all of this phenotypic data that they =
> are
> >>> collecting for the sire reference site can submit the data for their
> >>> sires, and or their hembras as well, and get computer generated=20
> >>> reports
> >>> of EPDs for all of the important traits that they want to select for
> >>> and
> >>> make genetic predictions about the offspring for. Any who don't =
> know
> >>> about what EPDs are and their value for accelerating genetic gain in
> >>> their herds can read the chapters on genetics in your upcoming
> >>> International Alpaca Handbook, or the articles I wrote for Alpacas
> >>> Magazine in 2002 and 2003, or the article on EPDs on Mike Safley's
> >>> website excerpted from his book, or they can come to my lectures
at=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> AOBA National Conference in Louisville.
> >>>
> >>> Wayne
> >>>
> >>> P.S. Don't tell me the handbook is really being printed ALREADY!
> >>>
> >>> *****************************************************
> >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis "In the beginning, God
> >>> created.... "
> >>> =
> Genesis
> >>> 1:1
> >>>
> >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.sixthdayfarm.com
> >>>
> >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20
> >>> DOING
> >>> IT.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ian Watt
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:03 PM
> >>> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program
> >>>
> >>> I am delighted to announce that I have found a laboratory to=20
> >>> undertake
> >>> the follicle and density counts for alpacas both here and in=20
> >>> Australia.
> >>> I have also secured a website to be called alpacasiresUSA.com which
> >>> will be the home of the new sire listing I wrote to you all about
> >>> several months ago.
> >>> I have extended the original concept to now include some phenotype
> >>> features that may help disclose the underlying genotype of sires
of=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> future. I am awaiting a response from Elizabeth Paul and will, in =
> all
> >>> probability, include details of gum, toenail, point and eyelid =
> colour
> >>> in the sire disclosure list. I would be very interested if anyone =
> has
> >>> any comments about this aspect of the project.
> >>> I am pasting the new program guidelines into this email for you to
> >>> peruse and consider. If you have any comments, I would greatly
> >>> appreciate you airing them on this site so we can all share the
> >>> thoughts.
> >>> Incidentally, another 20 odd breeders have joined the list as they
> >>> attended a workshop in California several weeks ago. New workshops=20=
>
> >>> are
> >>> planned for Maine, Colorado and Virginia later this year.
> >>> And the International Alpaca Handbook is finally off the presses
and=20=
>
> >>> at
> >>> the bindery awaiting binding!!
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Ian Watt
> >>>
> >>> ALPACA SIRE REFERENCE PROGRAM
> >>>
> >>> Preamble
> >>> Selection of sires is possibly the single most important breeding
> >>> decision any owner makes in striving for excellence in their alpaca
> >>> business.
> >>> The impact of a sire across a herd is more significant than any =
> other
> >>> single breeding decision.
> >>> The American alpaca industry uses more sires across its national =
> herd
> >>> than is probably necessary. Supporters of a wide gene pool for the
> >>> industry would dispute this, but, from a production perspective,
it=20=
>
> >>> is
> >>> hard to argue an alternative point of view.
> >>> The lack of a breed standard (for the industry) allows the broadest
> >>> possible interpretation on what comprises an acceptable=20
> >>> conformation. A
> >>> show standard goes beyond what is, or could reasonably be expected=20=
>
> >>> of,
> >>> an animal primarily devoted to fibre production ie the show standard
> >>> aims at a much higher level of conformation correctness than is=20
> >>> usually
> >>> reflected in a fibre production breeding emphasis.
> >>> Breeders who aim for fibre excellence in their alpacas often lack =
> the
> >>> tools with which to make informed and productive genetic selections.
> >>> Too often males are offered for service that have little or no
> >>> supportive objective data that provide objectively obtained=20
> >>> information
> >>> for the female owner and breeder. This information may not be=20
> >>> important
> >>> to many breeders (at the moment) but will become increasingly=20
> >>> important
> >>> as the rate of genetic improvement becomes harder and harder to
> >>> achieve. This is reflected most dramatically when the phenotype
> >>> differences between animals being considered for joining are not
> >>> immediately or apparently obvious.
> >>> Breeders seeking superior fibre characteristics and production
will=20=
>
> >>> be
> >>> looking for more than show results and perceived quality than is
> >>> currently the industry standard in the United States.
> >>> Breeders aiming to sit inside the top 20% or better of the national
> >>> herd (any national herd) will seek more and more objectively =
> measured
> >>> information to aid their individual selection processes.
> >>> Professionally oriented breeders will adopt a much more challenging
> >>> approach to the selection of sires and this will also apply to the
> >>> introduction of new female genetics into the individual herd as =
> well.
> >>> This program is designed to not only apply objective assessment
data=20=
>
> >>> to
> >>> both male and female selection criteria but to also show a way for
> >>> progressive breeders to position themselves for the future in
terms=20=
>
> >>> of
> >>> breeding and selling advanced fibre genetics.
> >>> The following criteria suggestions are aimed at sire selections
but=20=
>
> >>> can
> >>> apply equally to female selection protocols as well.
> >>> This program is about placing fibre as a higher priority than
> >>> conformation by objective measurement and the underpinning of
> >>> conformation correctness through strict adherence to a standard.
> >>>
> >>> The Program
> >>>
> >>> Because the influence of any sire is far greater across the national
> >>> herd than any individual female, it is important that sires be
> >>> rigorously examined for possible genetic conformational
weaknesses.=20=
>
> >>> It
> >>> is important that these traits be identified as health and welfare
> >>> issues rather than cosmetic or environmental differences or effects.
> >>> There is currently no industry conformation standard in place to
> >>> measure sires (or females for that matter) against, nor is there any
> >>> prospect of being one in the foreseeable future.
> >>> The use of objectively collected and measured fleece data is not=20
> >>> widely
> >>> used in the promotion of sires.
> >>> It is doubtful whether many breeders physically examine sires unless
> >>> they see them at a show or live close by. Many breeders send females
> >>> for mating to sight unseen sires and presumably rely upon a show=20
> >>> result
> >>> as a tick of conformational approval. This is not necessarily a =
> sound
> >>> breeding practice.
> >>>
> >>> First requirement.
> >>> Each sire will be required to pass a physical conformational
> >>> examination as described on a pro-forma established for such a=20
> >>> purpose.
> >>> This examination is identical to that adopted by the Australian=20
> >>> Alpaca
> >>> Association (AAA) for registration of males as sires approved for
> >>> progeny registration into the International Alpaca Register, owned=20=
>
> >>> and
> >>> operated by the AAA. Under the AAA scheme, any male used to sire =
> cria
> >>> able to be registered must pass this test before the sire is used to
> >>> get a female pregnant.
> >>> Each component of the standard must be passed for the male to be
> >>> considered satisfactory - there are no trade-offs, an animal must=20
> >>> pass
> >>> every requirement.
> >>> There is no fleece component.
> >>> The examination must be done by a veterinarian so that potentrial
> >>> customers can be assured that the certification has been done by an
> >>> independent and qualified person.
> >>> Second requirement.
> >>> Each sire will be required to be fleece tested using the OFDA2000
> >>> testing technology. A fleece sample from each mid-side will be=20
> >>> required
> >>> and the average of the two tests used as the final figure.
> >>> The sample will be collected by an independent person, divided in=20
> >>> half
> >>> with one sample forwarded by the sampler to the program
coordinator=20=
>
> >>> and
> >>> the other half retained by the owner under seal.
> >>> The information required by the program will include micron, =
> standard
> >>> deviation, coefficient of variation, comfort factor, staple length,
> >>> colour and average fibre profile.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Third requirement.
> >>> The fleece will be weighed at shearing by an independent person who
> >>> will record total fleece weight and saddle. The male will be =
> required
> >>> to be shorn from the ears down the neck, the body and legs down to=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> knee, excluding the tail.
> >>> The weight will be recorded and affirmed by the owner.
> >>> The shorn fleece will be raised to a height of eighteen inches from =
> a
> >>> table top and dropped. This will be done three times and the
weight=20=
>
> >>> of
> >>> the fleece recorded. This procedure will remove a considerable
part=20=
>
> >>> of
> >>> any dust in the fleece.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fourth requirement.
> >>> Breeders of coloured alpacas are becoming increasingly aware of the
> >>> phenotype expression of the genetics underlying what they see in the
> >>> flesh. There is an increasing sophistication being exhibited by
> >>> coloured breeders especially since the publication of Elizabeth=20
> >>> Paul's
> >>> "The Alpaca Colour Key". In order to meet this demand and to foster
> >>> itys growth, each male will have any identifying colour spots=20
> >>> disclosed
> >>> as well as eye colour, eyelid colour, points colour, toenail
colour=20=
>
> >>> and
> >>> gum colour. These potential genetic colour identifiers will be
> >>> important to discerning colour breeders of the future.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Additional option.
> >>> This option will allow owners of sires to have their sire tested for
> >>> primary:secondary follicle count as well as a density count. Owners
> >>> will be provided with a kit comprising all the materials and=20
> >>> equipment
> >>> needed to undertake the test and a comprehensive set of instructions
> >>> which will allow a competent person to do the collection without the
> >>> need for a veterinarian. It is suggested however that the vet
could=20=
>
> >>> do
> >>> the biopsy at the time of the physical examination. This is a =
> one-off
> >>> procedure and is offered for those breeders who might want to=20
> >>> identify
> >>> their top females within the herd.
> >>>
> >>> The information derived from the processing of the four requirements
> >>> will paint a composite picture of any sire using objectively=20
> >>> collected
> >>> data. This data can then be used to make some initial assessments of
> >>> the sire, allow comparisons between sires and lets sires be
assessed=20=
>
> >>> on
> >>> performance rather than subjective assessment reinforced by emotive
> >>> promotion.
> >>> The exercising of the additional option adds a far deeper
dimension=20=
>
> >>> to
> >>> the selection process and strikes a very new line of breeder=20
> >>> disclosure
> >>> to potential customers for sire services. This is very much leading
> >>> edge genetics.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Access to data
> >>> The data and documentation of each sire would then be collated and
> >>> processed into a website listing within a listing of "accredited=20
> >>> sires"
> >>> (or some such identifier). This website would be managed and=20
> >>> maintained
> >>> by Alpaca Consulting Services of Australia and would be open for=20
> >>> public
> >>> access.
> >>> There would be a fee structure for animals entering the program
and=20=
>
> >>> an
> >>> annual fee to cover the testing, collating and data processing of =
> the
> >>> annual shearing results.
> >>> Once entered into the site, the animal will remain until, either it
> >>> dies, the owner decides to withdraw or no new data has been =
> collected
> >>> for two seasons.
> >>> There will be a photograph of the sire on the site.
> >>> There will be no mention of show results.
> >>> There will be an option to link any particular sire to the owners
> >>> website or email address.
> >>> There will be no service fee or other advertising on the site.
> >>>
> >>> Benefits
> >>> The industry-wide benefit is access to sires demonstrating=20
> >>> objectively
> >>> measured fleece and conformation information collected by an
> >>> independent person. This feature alone will place these sires at the
> >>> forefront of breeders minds as the collection, testing and=20
> >>> distribution
> >>> of the information is not managed by the owner of the sire - a truly
> >>> vested interest - but by someone with absolutely no interest in any
> >>> animal.
> >>> By making the data public both breeders and sire owners have a
> >>> benchmark against which they can measure any potential sire but
also=20=
>
> >>> a
> >>> wider range of sires as this program allows any sire, or potential
> >>> sire, in.
> >>> Over time, the fleece history of the sire will become clear with=20
> >>> those
> >>> sires not blowing out in any measurable traits becoming more=20
> >>> recognized
> >>> and thus, potentially, more attractive as future herd sires.
> >>> Owners of listed sires will no doubt be recognized as leading edge
> >>> breeders as demonstrated through their strength of conviction in
> >>> submitting their animals to scrutiny over the internet.
> >>> Breeders looking for sires will, for the first time perhaps, have a
> >>> broader range of sires from which to select as small breeders
unable=20=
>
> >>> or
> >>> unwilling to exhibit at shows will have a vehicle through which they
> >>> can market and promote their animals at minimal cost and at maximum
> >>> credibility.
> >>> Finally, the conformation examination by a veterinarian will, for =
> the
> >>> first time, underpin an expanded guarantee of correctness of
> >>> conformation by a sire owner.
> >>> These are benefits that will not only enhance the reputation of the
> >>> animal but also the owner in an industry which will place more and=20=
>
> >>> more
> >>> emphasis on fleece production than is currently the case.
> >>> In essence, breeders offering sires entered into the program will be
> >>> attesting that their animals have met a documented conformation
> >>> standard, have undergone independently collected, tested and =
> recorded
> >>> fleece measurements and, if selected, are prepared to disclose
> >>> secondary to primary follicle ratios to buyers of both animals and
> >>> service options.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >>>
> >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20
> >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of =
> the
> >>> email.
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >>>
> >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to
> >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without =
> the
> >>> quotes) in the Subject line of the email.
> >>>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> >> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> >> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >>
> >> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20
> >> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and
> >> put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the=20
> >> email.
> >
> >
> > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM
> >
> > Promised Land Farm
> > 11345 Thwing Rd.
> > Chardon, Ohio 44024
> > 440-285-9255
> > Peruvian Perfection in Black and White - and other exciting colors!
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar =96 FREE!
> > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/
> >
> > ---
> > List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> > ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> > List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >
> > How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20
> > alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without
the=20=
>
> > quotes) in the Subject line of the email.
> >
>
> ---
> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
>
> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email.
>
---
List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and
put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email.
---
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List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put
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