[alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program

  • From: "Theodore Chepolis" <tchepolis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 21:55:12 -0700

Ian and Ruthanne,

Here's a thought which in practice may prove unwieldy and costly: what if
DNA testing were combined with the follicle test to ensure the sample
actually came from the identified stud?  As you rightly pointed out, Ian,
this is not a "red under every bed" observation, but a suggestion to how the
process can maintain objectivity.

Take care,     TED CHEPOLIS

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Watt" <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 12:25 PM
Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program


> Ruthanne,
> Many thanks for your comments - I really appreciate them.
> I hadn't thought of the possible problems you raise but I do see where=20=
>
> someone can make a mountain out of a molehill. I must admit that I
tend=20=
>
> to disregard those who see a "red under every bed" mainly because
these=20=
>
> type of people spend a disproportionate amount of time protecting=20
> perceptions instead of getting on with a productive and happy life -=20
> their decision, their consequence. However, I do agree that they tends=20=
>
> to be very vocal and quite easily provide a perception of import that=20
> is not there.
> I think I can overcome the problem by defining an inspecting=20
> veterinarian as one not either in the employ of the participating=20
> breeder or the woner of the animal. I would be most reluctant to draw=20
> the line any further because, as you point out, there are plenty of=20
> related business transactions between people that make real distance=20
> really hard to achieve.
> I would rely instead, on the professionalism of the veterinarian=20
> reputation and qualification.
> The fact of the matter is that the name on the proforma is that of a=20
> professional veterinarian who has both a qualification and reputation=20
> to maintain. i trust that this is sufficient reason for those=20
> veterinarians who even sniff a conflict of interest will recuse=20
> themselves to maintain the integrity of the assessment.
> I personally would apply the same perspective to the treatment of=20
> judges at shows. This practice of isolating the judges before a show,=20
> during the show and also disallowing people who have dealt with the=20
> judge in the six months prior to the show exhibits, to me, a lack of=20
> maturity with both the proponents of this regime and the industry as a=20=
>
> whole that does not have enough faith in a person to extend them the=20
> courtesy of professional attitude and integrity.
> But that is another matter I guess!
> I hope this answers your question but if it doesn't and anyone else=20
> would like to comment, please do.
> Kind regards,
> Ian Watt
>
> On Sunday, Apr 18, 2004, at 09:29 US/Pacific, Ruthanne McCaslin wrote:
>
> > Ian,
> >
> > Your proposal sounds very promising.  I am interested in=20
> > participating.  I,
> > too,  would like info on the reference lab for doing the biopsies as=20=
>
> > soon as
> > possible as we are starting to shear now.
> >
> > In the matter of transpaency,  have you considered that in the US=20
> > there are
> > a significant number of alpaca breeders who are also veterinarians? =20=
>
> > This
> > could produce a percieved or real conflict of interest.  Certainly I=20=
>
> > would
> > not think of doing the veterinary inspection on my own animals,  and=20=
>
> > those I
> > have sold to others,  but should I also exclude myself from doing=20
> > those of
> > other breeders with whom I do not have a business relationship?
What=20=
>
> > about
> > the friendships that develope at shows and confernces?  Somehow in
the=20=
>
> > small
> > comunity of the alpaca world,  it seems we are all conected.  Also =
> what
> > about the larger farms who have a veterinarian or two on their staff?
> >
> > I think that most veterinarians are very objective and highly ethical
> > people,  but there are perceptions to be addressed and the sour
grapes=20=
>
> > of
> > someone whose animal failed against someone else whose animal passed=20=
>
> > if,
> > say,  the second breeder was the vet's best client and the first was=20=
>
> > six
> > months in arrears on his vet bills.  Even if the vet was meticulously
> > impartial and the animal that passes deserved to pass and the animal=20=
>
> > that
> > failed deserved to fail,  that has never yet stopped a determined=20
> > whiner.
> > Whiners are a very, very small percentage of the alpaca community, =20
> > who by
> > and large are the nicest folks on earth,  but they tend to make=20
> > themselves
> > heard over the pleasantries of the majority.
> >
> > I am not trying to create problems here,  just help you think ahead =
> and
> > prevent them.  I totally agree that integrity,  both real and=20
> > percieved,  is
> > what creates the value in a program of this nature.  I hope to hear=20
> > more
> > soon.
> >
> > Wishing you nothing but the best,
> >
> > Ruthanne
> >
> > Ruthanne McCaslin,  DVM
> > Promised Land Farm Alpacas
> > Chardon,  Ohio
> > www.blackalpaca.com
> >
> >> From: Ian Watt <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Reply-To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program
> >> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:06:39 -0700
> >>
> >> Wayne,
> >> I did receive your earlier mail but then I went off to England for a
> >> couple of weeks!! Great trip travelling the canals of Shropshire and
> >> Wales in a narrow boat - guaranteed stress buster!
> >> I am awaiting a note from my Australian lab with all the details and
> >> will be incorporating them into the final release of the plan. I have
> >> had a good response from a very limited mail out and am confident =
> that
> >> it will appeal to those forward thinkers who want to work away from=20=
>
> >> the
> >> show circuit. I will let you know the details as soon as I have them =
> -
> >> hopefully later this week.
> >> The advance copies of the book have arrived and I am posting your =
> copy
> >> on Monday. It looks better than I had hoped which is both exciting =
> and
> >> a relief!
> >> Hope you are well.
> >> Cheers,
> >> Ian
> >> On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 05:58 US/Pacific, Sixth Day Farm wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Ian,
> >>>
> >>> I'm re-sending this as I never got a response about the lab doing =
> the
> >>> skin biopsies so I thought perhaps you didn't get the e-mail.
> >>>
> >>> Best Wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Wayne
> >>>
> >>> *****************************************************
> >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis            "In the beginning, God
> >>> created.... "
> >>>                                                               =
> Genesis
> >>> 1:1
> >>>
> >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx           www.sixthdayfarm.com
> >>>
> >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20
> >>> DOING
> >>> IT.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Sixth Day Farm [mailto:home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:27 PM
> >>> To: 'alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> >>> Subject: RE: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ian,
> >>>
> >>> I am getting ready to do biopsies at our shearing day in May. I have
> >>> everything I need to take the samples. I was going to send them to=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> histology lab at OSU for slides to be made and then read them =
> myself,
> >>> but would prefer to send them to a lab in the US that already
> >>> understands reading them for S/P ratio and density. Tell me about =
> the
> >>> processing you have available: how and where to send the samples,=20
> >>> cost,
> >>> and exactly how and what they will report.  Thanks!
> >>>
> >>> Also, The G.A.I.N. will be up and running by June.  Any of your list
> >>> members who want to send in all of this phenotypic data that they =
> are
> >>> collecting for the sire reference site can submit the data for their
> >>> sires, and or their hembras as well, and get computer generated=20
> >>> reports
> >>> of EPDs for all of the important traits that they want to select for
> >>> and
> >>> make genetic predictions about the offspring for.  Any who don't =
> know
> >>> about what EPDs are and their value for accelerating genetic gain in
> >>> their herds can read the chapters on genetics in your upcoming
> >>> International Alpaca Handbook, or the articles I wrote for Alpacas
> >>> Magazine in 2002 and 2003, or the article on EPDs on Mike Safley's
> >>> website excerpted from his book, or they can come to my lectures
at=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> AOBA National Conference in Louisville.
> >>>
> >>> Wayne
> >>>
> >>> P.S. Don't tell me the handbook is really being printed ALREADY!
> >>>
> >>> *****************************************************
> >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis            "In the beginning, God
> >>> created.... "
> >>>                                                               =
> Genesis
> >>> 1:1
> >>>
> >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx           www.sixthdayfarm.com
> >>>
> >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20
> >>> DOING
> >>> IT.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ian Watt
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:03 PM
> >>> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program
> >>>
> >>> I am delighted to announce that I have found a laboratory to=20
> >>> undertake
> >>> the follicle and density counts for alpacas both here and in=20
> >>> Australia.
> >>> I have also secured a website to be called alpacasiresUSA.com which
> >>> will be the home of the new sire listing I wrote to you all about
> >>> several months ago.
> >>> I have extended the original concept to now include some phenotype
> >>> features that may help disclose the underlying genotype of sires
of=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> future. I am awaiting a response from Elizabeth Paul and will, in =
> all
> >>> probability, include details of gum, toenail, point and eyelid =
> colour
> >>> in the sire disclosure list. I would be very interested if anyone =
> has
> >>> any comments about this aspect of the project.
> >>> I am pasting the new program guidelines into this email for you to
> >>> peruse and consider. If you have any comments, I would greatly
> >>> appreciate you airing them on this site so we can all share the
> >>> thoughts.
> >>> Incidentally, another 20 odd breeders have joined the list as they
> >>> attended a workshop in California several weeks ago. New workshops=20=
>
> >>> are
> >>> planned for Maine, Colorado and Virginia later this year.
> >>> And the International Alpaca Handbook is finally off the presses
and=20=
>
> >>> at
> >>> the bindery awaiting binding!!
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Ian Watt
> >>>
> >>> ALPACA SIRE REFERENCE PROGRAM
> >>>
> >>> Preamble
> >>> Selection of sires is possibly the single most important breeding
> >>> decision any owner makes in striving for excellence in their alpaca
> >>> business.
> >>> The impact of a sire across a herd is more significant than any =
> other
> >>> single breeding decision.
> >>> The American alpaca industry uses more sires across its national =
> herd
> >>> than is probably necessary. Supporters of a wide gene pool for the
> >>> industry would dispute this, but, from a production perspective,
it=20=
>
> >>> is
> >>> hard to argue an alternative point of view.
> >>> The lack of a breed standard (for the industry) allows the broadest
> >>> possible interpretation on what comprises an acceptable=20
> >>> conformation. A
> >>> show standard goes beyond what is, or could reasonably be expected=20=
>
> >>> of,
> >>> an animal primarily devoted to fibre production ie the show standard
> >>> aims at a much higher level of conformation correctness than is=20
> >>> usually
> >>> reflected in a fibre production breeding emphasis.
> >>> Breeders who aim for fibre excellence in their alpacas often lack =
> the
> >>> tools with which to make informed and productive genetic selections.
> >>> Too often males are offered for service that have little or no
> >>> supportive objective data that provide objectively obtained=20
> >>> information
> >>> for the female owner and breeder. This information may not be=20
> >>> important
> >>> to many breeders (at the moment) but will become increasingly=20
> >>> important
> >>> as the rate of genetic improvement becomes harder and harder to
> >>> achieve. This is reflected most dramatically when the phenotype
> >>> differences between animals being considered for joining are not
> >>> immediately or apparently obvious.
> >>> Breeders seeking superior fibre characteristics and production
will=20=
>
> >>> be
> >>> looking for more than show results and perceived quality than is
> >>> currently the industry standard in the United States.
> >>> Breeders aiming to sit inside the top 20% or better of the national
> >>> herd (any national herd) will seek more and more objectively =
> measured
> >>> information to aid their individual selection processes.
> >>> Professionally oriented breeders will adopt a much more challenging
> >>> approach to the selection of sires and this will also apply to the
> >>> introduction of new female genetics into the individual herd as =
> well.
> >>> This program is designed to not only apply objective assessment
data=20=
>
> >>> to
> >>> both male and female selection criteria but to also show a way for
> >>> progressive breeders to position themselves for the future in
terms=20=
>
> >>> of
> >>> breeding and selling advanced fibre genetics.
> >>> The following criteria suggestions are aimed at sire selections
but=20=
>
> >>> can
> >>> apply equally to female selection protocols as well.
> >>> This program is about placing fibre as a higher priority than
> >>> conformation by objective measurement and the underpinning of
> >>> conformation correctness through strict adherence to a standard.
> >>>
> >>> The Program
> >>>
> >>> Because the influence of any sire is far greater across the national
> >>> herd than any individual female, it is important that sires be
> >>> rigorously examined for possible genetic conformational
weaknesses.=20=
>
> >>> It
> >>> is important that these traits be identified as health and welfare
> >>> issues rather than cosmetic or environmental differences or effects.
> >>> There is currently no industry conformation standard in place to
> >>> measure sires (or females for that matter) against, nor is there any
> >>> prospect of being one in the foreseeable future.
> >>> The use of objectively collected and measured fleece data is not=20
> >>> widely
> >>> used in the promotion of sires.
> >>> It is doubtful whether many breeders physically examine sires unless
> >>> they see them at a show or live close by. Many breeders send females
> >>> for mating to sight unseen sires and presumably rely upon a show=20
> >>> result
> >>> as a tick of conformational approval. This is not necessarily a =
> sound
> >>> breeding practice.
> >>>
> >>> First requirement.
> >>> Each sire will be required to pass a physical conformational
> >>> examination as described on a pro-forma established for such a=20
> >>> purpose.
> >>> This examination is identical to that adopted by the Australian=20
> >>> Alpaca
> >>> Association (AAA) for registration of males as sires approved for
> >>> progeny registration into the International Alpaca Register, owned=20=
>
> >>> and
> >>> operated by the AAA. Under the AAA scheme, any male used to sire =
> cria
> >>> able to be registered must pass this test before the sire is used to
> >>> get a female pregnant.
> >>> Each component of the standard must be passed for the male to be
> >>> considered satisfactory - there are no trade-offs, an animal must=20
> >>> pass
> >>> every requirement.
> >>> There is no fleece component.
> >>> The examination must be done by a veterinarian so that potentrial
> >>> customers can be assured that the certification has been done by an
> >>> independent and qualified person.
> >>> Second requirement.
> >>> Each sire will be required to be fleece tested using the OFDA2000
> >>> testing technology. A fleece sample from each mid-side will be=20
> >>> required
> >>> and the average of the two tests used as the final figure.
> >>> The sample will be collected by an independent person, divided in=20
> >>> half
> >>> with one sample forwarded by the sampler to the program
coordinator=20=
>
> >>> and
> >>> the other half retained by the owner under seal.
> >>> The information required by the program will include micron, =
> standard
> >>> deviation, coefficient of variation, comfort factor, staple length,
> >>> colour and average fibre profile.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Third requirement.
> >>> The fleece will be weighed at shearing by an independent person who
> >>> will record total fleece weight and saddle. The male will be =
> required
> >>> to be shorn from the ears down the neck, the body and legs down to=20=
>
> >>> the
> >>> knee, excluding the tail.
> >>> The weight will be recorded and affirmed by the owner.
> >>> The shorn fleece will be raised to a height of eighteen inches from =
> a
> >>> table top and dropped. This will be done three times and the
weight=20=
>
> >>> of
> >>> the fleece recorded. This procedure will remove a considerable
part=20=
>
> >>> of
> >>> any dust in the fleece.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fourth requirement.
> >>> Breeders of coloured alpacas are becoming increasingly aware of the
> >>> phenotype expression of the genetics underlying what they see in the
> >>> flesh. There is an increasing sophistication being exhibited by
> >>> coloured breeders especially since the publication of Elizabeth=20
> >>> Paul's
> >>> "The Alpaca Colour Key". In order to meet this demand and to foster
> >>> itys growth, each male will have any identifying colour spots=20
> >>> disclosed
> >>> as well as eye colour, eyelid colour, points colour, toenail
colour=20=
>
> >>> and
> >>> gum colour. These potential genetic colour identifiers will be
> >>> important to discerning colour breeders of the future.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Additional option.
> >>> This option will allow owners of sires to have their sire tested for
> >>> primary:secondary follicle count as well as a density count. Owners
> >>> will be provided with a kit comprising all the materials and=20
> >>> equipment
> >>> needed to undertake the test and a comprehensive set of instructions
> >>> which will allow a competent person to do the collection without the
> >>> need for a veterinarian. It is suggested however that the vet
could=20=
>
> >>> do
> >>> the biopsy at the time of the physical examination. This is a =
> one-off
> >>> procedure and is offered for those breeders who might want to=20
> >>> identify
> >>> their top females within the herd.
> >>>
> >>> The information derived from the processing of the four requirements
> >>> will paint a composite picture of any sire using objectively=20
> >>> collected
> >>> data. This data can then be used to make some initial assessments of
> >>> the sire, allow comparisons between sires and lets sires be
assessed=20=
>
> >>> on
> >>> performance rather than subjective assessment reinforced by emotive
> >>> promotion.
> >>> The exercising of the additional option adds a far deeper
dimension=20=
>
> >>> to
> >>> the selection process and strikes a very new line of breeder=20
> >>> disclosure
> >>> to potential customers for sire services. This is very much leading
> >>> edge genetics.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Access to data
> >>> The data and documentation of each sire would then be collated and
> >>> processed into a website listing within a listing of "accredited=20
> >>> sires"
> >>> (or some such identifier). This website would be managed and=20
> >>> maintained
> >>> by Alpaca Consulting Services of Australia and would be open for=20
> >>> public
> >>> access.
> >>> There would be a fee structure for animals entering the program
and=20=
>
> >>> an
> >>> annual fee to cover the testing, collating and data processing of =
> the
> >>> annual shearing results.
> >>> Once entered into the site, the animal will remain until, either it
> >>> dies, the owner decides to withdraw or no new data has been =
> collected
> >>> for two seasons.
> >>> There will be a photograph of the sire on the site.
> >>> There will be no mention of show results.
> >>> There will be an option to link any particular sire to the owners
> >>> website or email address.
> >>> There will be no service fee or other advertising on the site.
> >>>
> >>> Benefits
> >>> The industry-wide benefit is access to sires demonstrating=20
> >>> objectively
> >>> measured fleece and conformation information collected by an
> >>> independent person. This feature alone will place these sires at the
> >>> forefront of breeders minds as the collection, testing and=20
> >>> distribution
> >>> of the information is not managed by the owner of the sire - a truly
> >>> vested interest - but by someone with absolutely no interest in any
> >>> animal.
> >>> By making the data public both breeders and sire owners have a
> >>> benchmark against which they can measure any potential sire but
also=20=
>
> >>> a
> >>> wider range of sires as this program allows any sire, or potential
> >>> sire, in.
> >>> Over time, the fleece history of the sire will become clear with=20
> >>> those
> >>> sires not blowing out in any measurable traits becoming more=20
> >>> recognized
> >>> and thus, potentially, more attractive as future herd sires.
> >>> Owners of listed sires will no doubt be recognized as leading edge
> >>> breeders as demonstrated through their strength of conviction in
> >>> submitting their animals to scrutiny over the internet.
> >>> Breeders looking for sires will, for the first time perhaps, have a
> >>> broader range of sires from which to select as small breeders
unable=20=
>
> >>> or
> >>> unwilling to exhibit at shows will have a vehicle through which they
> >>> can market and promote their animals at minimal cost and at maximum
> >>> credibility.
> >>> Finally, the conformation examination by a veterinarian will, for =
> the
> >>> first time, underpin an expanded guarantee of correctness of
> >>> conformation by a sire owner.
> >>> These are benefits that will not only enhance the reputation of the
> >>> animal but also the owner in an industry which will place more and=20=
>
> >>> more
> >>> emphasis on fleece production than is currently the case.
> >>> In essence, breeders offering sires entered into the program will be
> >>> attesting that their animals have met a documented conformation
> >>> standard, have undergone independently collected, tested and =
> recorded
> >>> fleece measurements and, if selected, are prepared to disclose
> >>> secondary to primary follicle ratios to buyers of both animals and
> >>> service options.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >>>
> >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20
> >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of =
> the
> >>> email.
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >>>
> >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to
> >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without =
> the
> >>> quotes) in the Subject line of the email.
> >>>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> >> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> >> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >>
> >> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20
> >> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and
> >> put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the=20
> >> email.
> >
> >
> > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM
> >
> > Promised Land Farm
> > 11345 Thwing Rd.
> > Chardon,  Ohio  44024
> > 440-285-9255
> > Peruvian Perfection in Black and White - and other exciting colors!
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar =96 FREE!
> > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/
> >
> > ---
> > List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> > ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> > List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
> >
> > How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20
> > alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without
the=20=
>
> > quotes) in the Subject line of the email.
> >
>
> ---
> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production
> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/
> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
>
> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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>


---
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