Ian and Ruthanne, Here's a thought which in practice may prove unwieldy and costly: what if DNA testing were combined with the follicle test to ensure the sample actually came from the identified stud? As you rightly pointed out, Ian, this is not a "red under every bed" observation, but a suggestion to how the process can maintain objectivity. Take care, TED CHEPOLIS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Watt" <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 12:25 PM Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program > Ruthanne, > Many thanks for your comments - I really appreciate them. > I hadn't thought of the possible problems you raise but I do see where=20= > > someone can make a mountain out of a molehill. I must admit that I tend=20= > > to disregard those who see a "red under every bed" mainly because these=20= > > type of people spend a disproportionate amount of time protecting=20 > perceptions instead of getting on with a productive and happy life -=20 > their decision, their consequence. However, I do agree that they tends=20= > > to be very vocal and quite easily provide a perception of import that=20 > is not there. > I think I can overcome the problem by defining an inspecting=20 > veterinarian as one not either in the employ of the participating=20 > breeder or the woner of the animal. I would be most reluctant to draw=20 > the line any further because, as you point out, there are plenty of=20 > related business transactions between people that make real distance=20 > really hard to achieve. > I would rely instead, on the professionalism of the veterinarian=20 > reputation and qualification. > The fact of the matter is that the name on the proforma is that of a=20 > professional veterinarian who has both a qualification and reputation=20 > to maintain. i trust that this is sufficient reason for those=20 > veterinarians who even sniff a conflict of interest will recuse=20 > themselves to maintain the integrity of the assessment. > I personally would apply the same perspective to the treatment of=20 > judges at shows. This practice of isolating the judges before a show,=20 > during the show and also disallowing people who have dealt with the=20 > judge in the six months prior to the show exhibits, to me, a lack of=20 > maturity with both the proponents of this regime and the industry as a=20= > > whole that does not have enough faith in a person to extend them the=20 > courtesy of professional attitude and integrity. > But that is another matter I guess! > I hope this answers your question but if it doesn't and anyone else=20 > would like to comment, please do. > Kind regards, > Ian Watt > > On Sunday, Apr 18, 2004, at 09:29 US/Pacific, Ruthanne McCaslin wrote: > > > Ian, > > > > Your proposal sounds very promising. I am interested in=20 > > participating. I, > > too, would like info on the reference lab for doing the biopsies as=20= > > > soon as > > possible as we are starting to shear now. > > > > In the matter of transpaency, have you considered that in the US=20 > > there are > > a significant number of alpaca breeders who are also veterinarians? =20= > > > This > > could produce a percieved or real conflict of interest. Certainly I=20= > > > would > > not think of doing the veterinary inspection on my own animals, and=20= > > > those I > > have sold to others, but should I also exclude myself from doing=20 > > those of > > other breeders with whom I do not have a business relationship? What=20= > > > about > > the friendships that develope at shows and confernces? Somehow in the=20= > > > small > > comunity of the alpaca world, it seems we are all conected. Also = > what > > about the larger farms who have a veterinarian or two on their staff? > > > > I think that most veterinarians are very objective and highly ethical > > people, but there are perceptions to be addressed and the sour grapes=20= > > > of > > someone whose animal failed against someone else whose animal passed=20= > > > if, > > say, the second breeder was the vet's best client and the first was=20= > > > six > > months in arrears on his vet bills. Even if the vet was meticulously > > impartial and the animal that passes deserved to pass and the animal=20= > > > that > > failed deserved to fail, that has never yet stopped a determined=20 > > whiner. > > Whiners are a very, very small percentage of the alpaca community, =20 > > who by > > and large are the nicest folks on earth, but they tend to make=20 > > themselves > > heard over the pleasantries of the majority. > > > > I am not trying to create problems here, just help you think ahead = > and > > prevent them. I totally agree that integrity, both real and=20 > > percieved, is > > what creates the value in a program of this nature. I hope to hear=20 > > more > > soon. > > > > Wishing you nothing but the best, > > > > Ruthanne > > > > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM > > Promised Land Farm Alpacas > > Chardon, Ohio > > www.blackalpaca.com > > > >> From: Ian Watt <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Reply-To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program > >> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:06:39 -0700 > >> > >> Wayne, > >> I did receive your earlier mail but then I went off to England for a > >> couple of weeks!! Great trip travelling the canals of Shropshire and > >> Wales in a narrow boat - guaranteed stress buster! > >> I am awaiting a note from my Australian lab with all the details and > >> will be incorporating them into the final release of the plan. I have > >> had a good response from a very limited mail out and am confident = > that > >> it will appeal to those forward thinkers who want to work away from=20= > > >> the > >> show circuit. I will let you know the details as soon as I have them = > - > >> hopefully later this week. > >> The advance copies of the book have arrived and I am posting your = > copy > >> on Monday. It looks better than I had hoped which is both exciting = > and > >> a relief! > >> Hope you are well. > >> Cheers, > >> Ian > >> On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 05:58 US/Pacific, Sixth Day Farm wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Ian, > >>> > >>> I'm re-sending this as I never got a response about the lab doing = > the > >>> skin biopsies so I thought perhaps you didn't get the e-mail. > >>> > >>> Best Wishes, > >>> > >>> Wayne > >>> > >>> ***************************************************** > >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis "In the beginning, God > >>> created.... " > >>> = > Genesis > >>> 1:1 > >>> > >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.sixthdayfarm.com > >>> > >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20 > >>> DOING > >>> IT. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sixth Day Farm [mailto:home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:27 PM > >>> To: 'alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' > >>> Subject: RE: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program > >>> > >>> Hi Ian, > >>> > >>> I am getting ready to do biopsies at our shearing day in May. I have > >>> everything I need to take the samples. I was going to send them to=20= > > >>> the > >>> histology lab at OSU for slides to be made and then read them = > myself, > >>> but would prefer to send them to a lab in the US that already > >>> understands reading them for S/P ratio and density. Tell me about = > the > >>> processing you have available: how and where to send the samples,=20 > >>> cost, > >>> and exactly how and what they will report. Thanks! > >>> > >>> Also, The G.A.I.N. will be up and running by June. Any of your list > >>> members who want to send in all of this phenotypic data that they = > are > >>> collecting for the sire reference site can submit the data for their > >>> sires, and or their hembras as well, and get computer generated=20 > >>> reports > >>> of EPDs for all of the important traits that they want to select for > >>> and > >>> make genetic predictions about the offspring for. Any who don't = > know > >>> about what EPDs are and their value for accelerating genetic gain in > >>> their herds can read the chapters on genetics in your upcoming > >>> International Alpaca Handbook, or the articles I wrote for Alpacas > >>> Magazine in 2002 and 2003, or the article on EPDs on Mike Safley's > >>> website excerpted from his book, or they can come to my lectures at=20= > > >>> the > >>> AOBA National Conference in Louisville. > >>> > >>> Wayne > >>> > >>> P.S. Don't tell me the handbook is really being printed ALREADY! > >>> > >>> ***************************************************** > >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis "In the beginning, God > >>> created.... " > >>> = > Genesis > >>> 1:1 > >>> > >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.sixthdayfarm.com > >>> > >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20 > >>> DOING > >>> IT. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> [mailto:alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ian Watt > >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:03 PM > >>> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program > >>> > >>> I am delighted to announce that I have found a laboratory to=20 > >>> undertake > >>> the follicle and density counts for alpacas both here and in=20 > >>> Australia. > >>> I have also secured a website to be called alpacasiresUSA.com which > >>> will be the home of the new sire listing I wrote to you all about > >>> several months ago. > >>> I have extended the original concept to now include some phenotype > >>> features that may help disclose the underlying genotype of sires of=20= > > >>> the > >>> future. I am awaiting a response from Elizabeth Paul and will, in = > all > >>> probability, include details of gum, toenail, point and eyelid = > colour > >>> in the sire disclosure list. I would be very interested if anyone = > has > >>> any comments about this aspect of the project. > >>> I am pasting the new program guidelines into this email for you to > >>> peruse and consider. If you have any comments, I would greatly > >>> appreciate you airing them on this site so we can all share the > >>> thoughts. > >>> Incidentally, another 20 odd breeders have joined the list as they > >>> attended a workshop in California several weeks ago. New workshops=20= > > >>> are > >>> planned for Maine, Colorado and Virginia later this year. > >>> And the International Alpaca Handbook is finally off the presses and=20= > > >>> at > >>> the bindery awaiting binding!! > >>> Cheers, > >>> Ian Watt > >>> > >>> ALPACA SIRE REFERENCE PROGRAM > >>> > >>> Preamble > >>> Selection of sires is possibly the single most important breeding > >>> decision any owner makes in striving for excellence in their alpaca > >>> business. > >>> The impact of a sire across a herd is more significant than any = > other > >>> single breeding decision. > >>> The American alpaca industry uses more sires across its national = > herd > >>> than is probably necessary. Supporters of a wide gene pool for the > >>> industry would dispute this, but, from a production perspective, it=20= > > >>> is > >>> hard to argue an alternative point of view. > >>> The lack of a breed standard (for the industry) allows the broadest > >>> possible interpretation on what comprises an acceptable=20 > >>> conformation. A > >>> show standard goes beyond what is, or could reasonably be expected=20= > > >>> of, > >>> an animal primarily devoted to fibre production ie the show standard > >>> aims at a much higher level of conformation correctness than is=20 > >>> usually > >>> reflected in a fibre production breeding emphasis. > >>> Breeders who aim for fibre excellence in their alpacas often lack = > the > >>> tools with which to make informed and productive genetic selections. > >>> Too often males are offered for service that have little or no > >>> supportive objective data that provide objectively obtained=20 > >>> information > >>> for the female owner and breeder. This information may not be=20 > >>> important > >>> to many breeders (at the moment) but will become increasingly=20 > >>> important > >>> as the rate of genetic improvement becomes harder and harder to > >>> achieve. This is reflected most dramatically when the phenotype > >>> differences between animals being considered for joining are not > >>> immediately or apparently obvious. > >>> Breeders seeking superior fibre characteristics and production will=20= > > >>> be > >>> looking for more than show results and perceived quality than is > >>> currently the industry standard in the United States. > >>> Breeders aiming to sit inside the top 20% or better of the national > >>> herd (any national herd) will seek more and more objectively = > measured > >>> information to aid their individual selection processes. > >>> Professionally oriented breeders will adopt a much more challenging > >>> approach to the selection of sires and this will also apply to the > >>> introduction of new female genetics into the individual herd as = > well. > >>> This program is designed to not only apply objective assessment data=20= > > >>> to > >>> both male and female selection criteria but to also show a way for > >>> progressive breeders to position themselves for the future in terms=20= > > >>> of > >>> breeding and selling advanced fibre genetics. > >>> The following criteria suggestions are aimed at sire selections but=20= > > >>> can > >>> apply equally to female selection protocols as well. > >>> This program is about placing fibre as a higher priority than > >>> conformation by objective measurement and the underpinning of > >>> conformation correctness through strict adherence to a standard. > >>> > >>> The Program > >>> > >>> Because the influence of any sire is far greater across the national > >>> herd than any individual female, it is important that sires be > >>> rigorously examined for possible genetic conformational weaknesses.=20= > > >>> It > >>> is important that these traits be identified as health and welfare > >>> issues rather than cosmetic or environmental differences or effects. > >>> There is currently no industry conformation standard in place to > >>> measure sires (or females for that matter) against, nor is there any > >>> prospect of being one in the foreseeable future. > >>> The use of objectively collected and measured fleece data is not=20 > >>> widely > >>> used in the promotion of sires. > >>> It is doubtful whether many breeders physically examine sires unless > >>> they see them at a show or live close by. Many breeders send females > >>> for mating to sight unseen sires and presumably rely upon a show=20 > >>> result > >>> as a tick of conformational approval. This is not necessarily a = > sound > >>> breeding practice. > >>> > >>> First requirement. > >>> Each sire will be required to pass a physical conformational > >>> examination as described on a pro-forma established for such a=20 > >>> purpose. > >>> This examination is identical to that adopted by the Australian=20 > >>> Alpaca > >>> Association (AAA) for registration of males as sires approved for > >>> progeny registration into the International Alpaca Register, owned=20= > > >>> and > >>> operated by the AAA. Under the AAA scheme, any male used to sire = > cria > >>> able to be registered must pass this test before the sire is used to > >>> get a female pregnant. > >>> Each component of the standard must be passed for the male to be > >>> considered satisfactory - there are no trade-offs, an animal must=20 > >>> pass > >>> every requirement. > >>> There is no fleece component. > >>> The examination must be done by a veterinarian so that potentrial > >>> customers can be assured that the certification has been done by an > >>> independent and qualified person. > >>> Second requirement. > >>> Each sire will be required to be fleece tested using the OFDA2000 > >>> testing technology. A fleece sample from each mid-side will be=20 > >>> required > >>> and the average of the two tests used as the final figure. > >>> The sample will be collected by an independent person, divided in=20 > >>> half > >>> with one sample forwarded by the sampler to the program coordinator=20= > > >>> and > >>> the other half retained by the owner under seal. > >>> The information required by the program will include micron, = > standard > >>> deviation, coefficient of variation, comfort factor, staple length, > >>> colour and average fibre profile. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Third requirement. > >>> The fleece will be weighed at shearing by an independent person who > >>> will record total fleece weight and saddle. The male will be = > required > >>> to be shorn from the ears down the neck, the body and legs down to=20= > > >>> the > >>> knee, excluding the tail. > >>> The weight will be recorded and affirmed by the owner. > >>> The shorn fleece will be raised to a height of eighteen inches from = > a > >>> table top and dropped. This will be done three times and the weight=20= > > >>> of > >>> the fleece recorded. This procedure will remove a considerable part=20= > > >>> of > >>> any dust in the fleece. > >>> > >>> > >>> Fourth requirement. > >>> Breeders of coloured alpacas are becoming increasingly aware of the > >>> phenotype expression of the genetics underlying what they see in the > >>> flesh. There is an increasing sophistication being exhibited by > >>> coloured breeders especially since the publication of Elizabeth=20 > >>> Paul's > >>> "The Alpaca Colour Key". In order to meet this demand and to foster > >>> itys growth, each male will have any identifying colour spots=20 > >>> disclosed > >>> as well as eye colour, eyelid colour, points colour, toenail colour=20= > > >>> and > >>> gum colour. These potential genetic colour identifiers will be > >>> important to discerning colour breeders of the future. > >>> > >>> > >>> Additional option. > >>> This option will allow owners of sires to have their sire tested for > >>> primary:secondary follicle count as well as a density count. Owners > >>> will be provided with a kit comprising all the materials and=20 > >>> equipment > >>> needed to undertake the test and a comprehensive set of instructions > >>> which will allow a competent person to do the collection without the > >>> need for a veterinarian. It is suggested however that the vet could=20= > > >>> do > >>> the biopsy at the time of the physical examination. This is a = > one-off > >>> procedure and is offered for those breeders who might want to=20 > >>> identify > >>> their top females within the herd. > >>> > >>> The information derived from the processing of the four requirements > >>> will paint a composite picture of any sire using objectively=20 > >>> collected > >>> data. This data can then be used to make some initial assessments of > >>> the sire, allow comparisons between sires and lets sires be assessed=20= > > >>> on > >>> performance rather than subjective assessment reinforced by emotive > >>> promotion. > >>> The exercising of the additional option adds a far deeper dimension=20= > > >>> to > >>> the selection process and strikes a very new line of breeder=20 > >>> disclosure > >>> to potential customers for sire services. This is very much leading > >>> edge genetics. > >>> > >>> > >>> Access to data > >>> The data and documentation of each sire would then be collated and > >>> processed into a website listing within a listing of "accredited=20 > >>> sires" > >>> (or some such identifier). This website would be managed and=20 > >>> maintained > >>> by Alpaca Consulting Services of Australia and would be open for=20 > >>> public > >>> access. > >>> There would be a fee structure for animals entering the program and=20= > > >>> an > >>> annual fee to cover the testing, collating and data processing of = > the > >>> annual shearing results. > >>> Once entered into the site, the animal will remain until, either it > >>> dies, the owner decides to withdraw or no new data has been = > collected > >>> for two seasons. > >>> There will be a photograph of the sire on the site. > >>> There will be no mention of show results. > >>> There will be an option to link any particular sire to the owners > >>> website or email address. > >>> There will be no service fee or other advertising on the site. > >>> > >>> Benefits > >>> The industry-wide benefit is access to sires demonstrating=20 > >>> objectively > >>> measured fleece and conformation information collected by an > >>> independent person. This feature alone will place these sires at the > >>> forefront of breeders minds as the collection, testing and=20 > >>> distribution > >>> of the information is not managed by the owner of the sire - a truly > >>> vested interest - but by someone with absolutely no interest in any > >>> animal. > >>> By making the data public both breeders and sire owners have a > >>> benchmark against which they can measure any potential sire but also=20= > > >>> a > >>> wider range of sires as this program allows any sire, or potential > >>> sire, in. > >>> Over time, the fleece history of the sire will become clear with=20 > >>> those > >>> sires not blowing out in any measurable traits becoming more=20 > >>> recognized > >>> and thus, potentially, more attractive as future herd sires. > >>> Owners of listed sires will no doubt be recognized as leading edge > >>> breeders as demonstrated through their strength of conviction in > >>> submitting their animals to scrutiny over the internet. > >>> Breeders looking for sires will, for the first time perhaps, have a > >>> broader range of sires from which to select as small breeders unable=20= > > >>> or > >>> unwilling to exhibit at shows will have a vehicle through which they > >>> can market and promote their animals at minimal cost and at maximum > >>> credibility. > >>> Finally, the conformation examination by a veterinarian will, for = > the > >>> first time, underpin an expanded guarantee of correctness of > >>> conformation by a sire owner. > >>> These are benefits that will not only enhance the reputation of the > >>> animal but also the owner in an industry which will place more and=20= > > >>> more > >>> emphasis on fleece production than is currently the case. > >>> In essence, breeders offering sires entered into the program will be > >>> attesting that their animals have met a documented conformation > >>> standard, have undergone independently collected, tested and = > recorded > >>> fleece measurements and, if selected, are prepared to disclose > >>> secondary to primary follicle ratios to buyers of both animals and > >>> service options. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- > >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > >>> > >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20 > >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of = > the > >>> email. > >>> > >>> --- > >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > >>> > >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to > >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without = > the > >>> quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > >>> > >> > >> --- > >> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > >> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > >> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > >> > >> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20 > >> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and > >> put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the=20 > >> email. > > > > > > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM > > > > Promised Land Farm > > 11345 Thwing Rd. > > Chardon, Ohio 44024 > > 440-285-9255 > > Peruvian Perfection in Black and White - and other exciting colors! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar =96 FREE! > > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > > > > --- > > List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > > ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > > List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > > > > How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20 > > alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the=20= > > > quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > > > > --- > List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > > How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > --- List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email.