Ah, I love being the the company of the "best and brightest".;-) Jim McVey McVey Alltronix 327 Broadway Newburgh Ny 12550 ph: 845 561 8383 fx: 845 561 9017 Consumer electronics & computer service. Factory authorized for over twenty brands. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damon" <damon101@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "TechAssist" <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp system protection ? > Well, wave a steak or spaghetti in front of my nose ....I'll be asleep in 5 > minutes. At least Professor Silverman can get completely through his > dissertation.....and my eyes won't even roll back into my head. > > Just had the best darn steak I ever ate about 5 minutes ago....shared some > with a couple of my cats...even better than the steaks I get at Applebee's > or TGI Friday's.....and you know why?? > > Because I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....sat on it in the van, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > today....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz smells just like a zzzzzzzzzzz...mmmmmmm. > Now that's zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz good eatin' ;-) > > Damon Brunger > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hoyt's TV" <hoytstv@xxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:45 AM > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp > system protection ? > > > | > Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are > | built.......C'mon....tell > | > me one more....then I'll go to bed > | > | Gawd, you must me old. > | > | Russ Hoyt > | Hoyt's TV > | Exeter, NH > | > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Damon" <damon101@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 7:51 AM > | Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp > | system protection ? > | > | > | > BINGO.....that's what makes ALL transformers.....and inductors > | > operate....NON saturated magnetism. You reach that point, or your input > | > signal stabilizes and you're done. > | > > | > I'm not as elaborate as Professor Silverman here.....but he knows his > | stuff > | > guys..... (that or he's the best shyster I've ever heard...injecting > | subtle > | > half truths in his full truths juuuuuuust enough to slip them past > us....) > | > > | > Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are > | built.......C'mon....tell > | > me one more....then I'll go to bed....pleeeeeeeeeeze...;-) > | > > | > Damon Brunger > | > Telrad Electronic Services > | > Ft Wayne, IN 46815 > | > > | > > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx> > | > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 3:34 PM > | > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround > amp > | > system protection ? > | > > | > > | > | Even though the voltage applied is not changing during the flat top of > a > | > | square wave, the current is changing. The changing current is what is > | > | generating the changing manetic field which is what is generating the > | > | counter EMF. This continues as long as the core does not saturate. > | > | Jerry Silverman > | > | Greentron Inc > | > | 4 Newland Ave > | > | Greenville SC 29609 > | > | 864 232 3889 > | > | Fax 271 2080 > | > | mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | > | From: "George" <grndmstrg@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:52 PM > | > | Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround > | amp > | > | system protection ? > | > | > | > | > | > | > Ok, what about the impedance loss of the transformer? When the > square > | > wave > | > | > reaches the maximum volt it loses the changing potential that takes > | > place > | > | > when alternating current is applied, therefore no counter > | electromotive > | > | > force (EMF) is developed thus no reactance is developed, there will > | only > | > | be > | > | > direct current resistance present, that can equal to damaging high > | > current > | > | > levels until it switches then high current again. I would hope the > | > circuit > | > | > has a primary fuse in place. Just my two cents worth. > | > | > > | > | > George > | > | > Afana Electronics > | > | > Moreno Valley, CA > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > | > From: <gulftech@xxxxxxxx> > | > | > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 4:45 PM > | > | > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for > TV,DVD,surround > | > amp > | > | > system protection ? > | > | > > | > | > > | > | > > Come on Jerry, > | > | > > > | > | > > Since when is a square wave referred to as RMS? That is only > | applied > | > to > | > | > > normal AC of some given frequency. > | > | > > > | > | > > I would agree that a zero to +115 volt square wave would result in > | > | 115VDC > | > | > > output, but as far as ripple--you got to be kidding. That would > be > | a > | > | 50% > | > | > > duty cycle, fed into a conventional bridge assuming no leakage. > It > | > | would > | > | > > also result in a higher than normal current for the diodes of the > | > | bridge. > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > Feeding 120 VAC 60Hz, the peak is (indeed) 169.68 volts. (1.414 > x > | > | 120.) > | > | > > But, a square wave, 0-120, results in just 120 volts less decay > | time > | > | > > during non-conduction, with much less need for filtering. Now, if > | the > | > | > > input were to be a -60 to +60 square wave, the result would still > be > | > the > | > | > > same. I have too much respect for your input not to challenge > your > | > | > > statement. You said "Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run > | > hotter > | > | > > when fed a square wave." Not true. The avg. current of a sine > wave > | > | > > input is only 63%. A square wave is either on or off. That means > | > 50%. > | > | > > Now, even if the square wave was +/- 60 vdc, the average current > | would > | > | > > STILL BE LESS than 120v RMS. > | > | > > > | > | > > I don't often pick a problem with your posts. You are a person I > | > | > > respect. However, I disagree with your statement. I certainly > | stand > | > to > | > | > > be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, but according to theory, > | > | > > whether it be 0-120 V RMS or -60-+60 square wave, will produce > the > | > same > | > | > > average current. The peak voltages would be of course different. > | > Given > | > | > > the separate inputs, 120 VAC to a bridge gives 169 volts peak. A > | > square > | > | > > wave 120 dc input yeilds only 120 volts output, with lesser need > for > | > | > > filtering. This is, of course, neglecting the diode drop. > | > | > > > | > | > > I don't know how this would affect equipment connected to a > backup. > | I > | > | > > don't mean to keep this for discussion. I personally feel that > | > | comparing > | > | > > computers to amplifiers for a load is not possible. The computer > | load > | > | is > | > | > > fairly constant, but the amplifier load is not. The current draw > | on > | > a > | > | > > computer is fairly constant. That of an amp is dependent on both > | the > | > | > > source and the volume level selected. I would suggest that the > peak > | > of > | > | > > power required for an amp would be much higher than for a > | > | > > computer/monitor. > | > | > > > | > | > > My apologies to Jay, the other TechAssist staff, and to those of > you > | > who > | > | > > could care less. > | > | > > > | > | > > I don't mean to imply that this question has no merit. It does. > It > | > | > > gives all of us a chance to discuss the basics of our trade. > | > | > > > | > | > > I spent years teaching this stuff, but I have been wrong before. > | Just > | > | > > don't stop trying to learn. > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > Ken Smith > | > | > > Gulf Technical Services > | > | > > 3034 Gulf Breeze Parkway > | > | > > Gulf Breeze, FL 32563 > | > | > > 850-934-8324 (Voice) 850-932-0819 (Fax) > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > On Fri, 7 May 2004 17:38:51 -0400 "J Silverman" > <greentron@xxxxxxx> > | > | > > writes: > | > | > > > If you have a 115 volt RMS square wave and rectify it and filter > | it, > | > | > > > you > | > | > > > will get approx 115 VDC and practically no ripple. If you > rectify > | > | > > > and filter > | > | > > > a 115 volt RMS sine wave you will get about 162 VDC and ripple > | > | > > > depending on > | > | > > > load. Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run hotter when > fed > | a > | > | > > > square > | > | > > > wave. Thinner laminations are used if the transformer has to > | handle > | > | > > > higher > | > | > > > frequencies. Also the magnetron high voltage in a microwave is > | > | > > > developed > | > | > > > using a 60 Hertz transformer with a resonating capacitor, > selected > | t > | > o > | > | > > > resonate with the leakage inductance of the transformer. If you > | want > | > | > > > to > | > | > > > change power sources for equipment, you have to keep these > things > | in > | > | > > > mind. > | > | > > > Jerry Silverman > | > | > > > Greentron Inc > | > | > > > 4 Newland Ave > | > | > > > Greenville SC 29609 > | > | > > > 864 232 3889 > | > | > > > Fax 271 2080 > | > | > > > mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx > | > | > > > ----- Original Message ----- > | > | > > > From: "Ty" <ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > > > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:23 PM > | > | > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for > | > | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp > | > | > > > system protection ? > | > | > > > > | > | > > > > | > | > > > > This question has me intrigued. Why is it being debated by > | > | > > > proficient > | > | > > > > electronic technicians? > | > | > > > > OK. MODERN televisions, VCRs, DVDs, anything with a pulse > power > | > | > > > supply. > | > | > > > > Reasoning that modern Pulse Power supplies essentially run on > | DC, > | > | > > > I was > | > | > > > > wondering what difference it makes what kind of sign, square, > or > | > | > > > whatever, > | > | > > > > wave gets rectified in order to charge the primary filter > | > | > > > capacitor. As > | > | > > > long > | > | > > > > as the filter is charged to the critical starting voltage and > is > | > | > > > maintained. > | > | > > > > Of course, you will have to raise the input to meet the output > | > | > > > criteria. > | > | > > > > Heck, you can use DC for input and you can even ignore the > | > | > > > polarity due to > | > | > > > > the bridge!. > | > | > > > > Mmmmm.... > | > | > > > > Take a voltage reading on the main filter cap under full load. > | > | > > > > Connect a bunch of batteries to attain the voltage. Connect it > | > | > > > across the > | > | > > > > filter and you got your problem solved. Instant UPS. Of > course, > | > | > > > you will > | > | > > > > have to modify the ON/OFF switch. Another problem is charging > > | > | > > > inrush. Use > | > | > > > a > | > | > > > > diode and resistor combination. Heck, we can figure it out! > | > | > > > > Now the 10 lb transformer in a power amplifier or in the > | Microwave > | > | > > > is > | > | > > > > another story, but not impossible if batteries are used after > | the > | > | > > > > transformer. Storage would be a problem. Where would you store > | > | > > > enough > | > | > > > > batteries to power a Magnetron and finish cooking that turkey. > | > | > > > > Lets see. Move the holyday dishes to the basement, move the > | > | > > > regular dishes > | > | > > > > to where the holyday dishes were, and WALLA! LOOK OUT TURKEY! > | > | > > > > Just realized the biggest obstacle to my simple idea. How am I > | > | > > > going to > | > | > > > get > | > | > > > > the wife to allow me to drill a hole in the countertop... > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > Have fun! >(;o) > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > Ty > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > Tiberius Kraemer > | > | > > > > BLUE STAR ELECTRONICS > | > | > > > > 3312 Silverton Rd. NE > | > | > > > > Salem, Oregon > | > | > > > > Phone: 503 391 1491 > | > | > > > > Mailto:ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > -----Original Message----- > | > | > > > > From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > | > | > > > > [mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Phil > Bader > | > | > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:44 AM > | > | > > > > To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > | > | > > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for > | > | > > > TV,DVD,surround > | > | > > > > amp system protection ? > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > Shoot, jerry why are your facts so depressing! > | > | > > > > Seriously, I called APC, and the tech said the "stepped sine > | wave" > | > | > > > > versions may not work satisfactorily with , say, an engraving > | > | > > > machine > | > | > > > > (My next door neighbor has a trophy shop). he suggested their > | > | > > > better > | > | > > > > Smart UPS line, I think its called.Anyway, it would be sort of > | > self > | > | > > > > defeating to destroy the very thing you are wanting to > | protect... > | > | > > > > Phil Bader > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > J Silverman wrote: > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > >The computer power supplies work fine with the 115 VAC (RMS) > | > | > > > square wave > | > | > > > > >output from the low cost UPSs. Most consumer electronic > | equipment > | > | > > > is > | > | > > > rated > | > | > > > > >for 115 volt RMS 60 Hertz sine wave, plus or minus 10%. If > you > | > | > > > use the > | > | > > > > >computer UPS with consumer electronic equipment the internal > | > | > > > voltages and > | > | > > > > >losses are different than the spec., so you are not sure if > you > | > | > > > will have > | > | > > > > >functional problems or if things will overheat. A lot of > stuff > | > | > > > will > | > | > > > > probably > | > | > > > > >work OK, but you cant be sure. So the suggestion was made to > | use > | > | > > > UPSs > | > | > > > that > | > | > > > > >have a sine wave output and these are many times more > expensive > | > | > > > than the > | > | > > > > >ones with a square wave output. > | > | > > > > > > | > | > > > > >Jerry Silverman > | > | > > > > >Greentron Inc > | > | > > > > >4 Newland Ave > | > | > > > > >Greenville SC 29609 > | > | > > > > >864 232 3889 > | > | > > > > >Fax 271 2080 > | > | > > > > >mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx > | > | > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > | > | > > > > >From: "Kevin" <kevintv@xxxxxxx> > | > | > > > > >To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > > > > >Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 5:30 AM > | > | > > > > >Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for > | > | > > > TV,DVD,surround > | > | > > > amp > | > | > > > > >system protection ? > | > | > > > > > > | > | > > > > > > | > | > > > > > > | > | > > > > > > | > | > > > > >>Using a UPS for a computer is also designed to save what a > | > | > > > person is > | > | > > > > >>working on at the time of a power outage. When the power > goes > | > | > > > out the > | > | > > > > >>computer stays on and the person can save his work and then > | shut > | > | > > > the > | > | > > > > >>computer down properly. In some cases it will also prevent > | data > | > | > > > from > | > | > > > > >>being corrupted on the hard drive when the power goes out. > | > | > > > Having the > | > | > > > > >>power outage causes windows to shut down improperly, which > | could > | > | > > > corrupt > | > | > > > > >>data on the hard drive. > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>Kevin Wilks > | > | > > > > >>Kevin's TV & Video Repair > | > | > > > > >>Penticton BC Canada > | > | > > > > >>kevintv@xxxxxxx > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > | > | > > > > >>From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > | > | > > > > >>[mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hoyt's > | TV > | > | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 2:11 PM > | > | > > > > >>To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > | > | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for > | > | > > > TV,DVD,surround > | > | > > > > >>amp system protection ? > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>Considering the price of some TVs and stereos these days, > I'm > | > | > > > surprised > | > | > > > > >>they > | > | > > > > >>don't push UPS's for those, like they do for computers. > | > | > > > Computers were > | > | > > > > >>the > | > | > > > > >>first things that were overly sensitive but TVs etc. have > now > | > | > > > caught up. > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>Russ Hoyt > | > | > > > > >>Hoyt's TV > | > | > > > > >>Exeter, NH > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>----- Original Message ----- > | > | > > > > >>From: "Larry Poffen" <lpoffen@xxxxxxx> > | > | > > > > >>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 3:46 PM > | > | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for > | > | > > > TV,DVD,surround > | > | > > > > >>amp > | > | > > > > >>system protection ? > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>I have used a APC 1000 for my personal stuff for about 2 > | years. > | > | > > > I had > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>a > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>power surge that took it out this year, along with many > other > | > | > > > things, > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>but > | > | > > > > >>my > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>36" TV &VCR/ stereo stuff were all OK. It is worth the > | peace > | > | > > > of > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>mind. > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>Larry > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>>Larrys TV Service > | > | > > > > >>>Broken Arrow OK 74011 > | > | > > > > >>>phone 918-455-1041 > | > | > > > > >>>Fax 918-451-4485 > | > | > > > > >>>e-mail lpoffen@xxxxxxx > | > | > > > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > | > | > > > > >>>From: "Phil Bader" <tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > > > > >>>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > | > | > > > > >>>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:06 AM > | > | > > > > >>>Subject: [TechAssist] use a battery backup UPS for > | > | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp > | > | > > > > >>>system protection ? > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>>>I never heard of anyone doing this, but I've had this > | thought > | > | > > > for a > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>few > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>years: > | > | > > > > >>>>use a heavy battery back up UPS like used on PC systems > for > | an > | > | > > > > >>>>entertainment center. Many ills are from power > | > | > > > > >>>>fluctuations,sags,surges,etc. TV EEPROMs corrupted, power > | > | > > > supplies > | > | > > > > >>>>damaged, pro-jo CRTs damaged with a spot because it went > | down > | > | > > > at > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>once > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>without proper power down,etc. > | > | > > > > >>>>Most equipement is not a heavy current draw. > | > | > > > > >>>>Can this be done and should it? > | > | > > > > >>>>I have a Zenith 50" projection TV (not wide > screen,standard > | > | > > > 3:4) > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>which > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>is rated at 215 watts (2.8A) "max". > | > | > > > > >>>> I think my VCR/DVD deck pulls maybe 30 watts. > | > | > > > > >>>>My Bose "lifestyle 7" surround amp, I don't know the > | wattage. > | > | > > > > >>>>And a cable box maybe another 30 watts? > | > | > > > > >>>>I'm guessing 300-400 watts max running everything > | > | > > > > >>>> if using the sound system as well. Much less if using > only > | > the > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>projo's > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>speakers. > | > | > > > > >>>>Now most of these UPS units are in standby mode and the > | > | > > > connected > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>gear > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>is running off line current until there is a power loss, > | which > | > | > > > time > | > | > > > > >>>>ultra-fast switching transferrs power to the battery > system. > | > | > > > This > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>would > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>be only needed for intermittant power fluctuations, or if > | lost > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>totally, > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>enough time to safely power off the audio/video system. > | > | > > > > >>>>A 6 outlet power strip plugged into the UPS would be > | > | > > > convenient. > | > | > > > > >>>>What would be a good power rating for a UPS? > | > | > > > > >>>>Twice needed wattage? whats rule of thumb, and also whats > | your > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>feedback > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >> > | > | > > > > >>>>on this idea? > | > | > > > > >>>>Phil Bader > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>>-- > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>>Philip Bader > | > | > > > > >>>>Jan Phyl TV Inc. (estab. 1976) > | > | > > > > >>>>3420 Recker Hwy. Winter Haven, Fl. 33880 > | > | > > > > >>>>Fax (863) 299-8821 > | > | > > > > >>>>email: tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > >>> > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > | > | > > | > | > | > > | > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > | > > - > | > | > > > -- > | > | > > > > - > | > | > > > > Lost Password: > | > | > > > > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > | > > > > Email Archives: > | > | > > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > > | > | > > > > | > | > > | > | > | > > | > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > | > > - > | > | > > > --- > | > | > > > > Lost Password: > | > | > > > > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > | > > > > Email Archives: > | > | > > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > | > > > > | > | > > > > | > | > > > > | > | > > | > | > | > > | > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > | > > ---- > | > | > > > Lost Password: > | > | > > > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > | > > > Email Archives: > | > | > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > | > > > > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > ________________________________________________________________ > | > | > > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > | > | > > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > | > | > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > | > | > > > | > | > > | > | > | > > | > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > | > --- > | > | > > Lost Password: > | > | > > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > | > > Email Archives: > | > | > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > | > > > | > | > > | > | > > | > | > > | > | > | > > | > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > | --- > | > | > Lost Password: > | > | > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > | > Email Archives: > | > | > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > | > | > | > | > > | > | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > --- > | > | Lost Password: > | > | http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > | Email Archives: > | > | //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > | > | > > | > > | > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | --- > | > Lost Password: > | > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | > Email Archives: > | > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > > | > | > | > | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > | Lost Password: > | http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > | Email Archives: > | //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ > | > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Lost Password: > http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". > Email Archives: > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lost Password: http://www.tech-assist.org and select "Login Problems?". 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