[TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp system protection ?

  • From: "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:47:13 -0400

I guess you are up by now or you wouldnt be reading this! Please specify
what type of capacitor you require enlightenment about. There are many types
and the processing and behavior is different for each type.
Jerry Silverman
Greentron Inc
4 Newland Ave
Greenville SC 29609
864 232 3889
Fax 271 2080
mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damon" <damon101@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 7:51 AM
Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp
system protection ?


> BINGO.....that's what makes ALL transformers.....and inductors
> operate....NON saturated magnetism. You reach that point, or your input
> signal stabilizes and you're done.
>
> I'm not as elaborate as Professor Silverman here.....but he knows his
stuff
> guys..... (that or he's the best shyster I've ever heard...injecting
subtle
> half truths in his full truths juuuuuuust enough to slip them past us....)
>
> Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are
built.......C'mon....tell
> me one more....then I'll go to bed....pleeeeeeeeeeze...;-)
>
> Damon Brunger
> Telrad Electronic Services
> Ft Wayne, IN 46815
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx>
> To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 3:34 PM
> Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp
> system protection ?
>
>
> | Even though the voltage applied is not changing during the flat top of a
> | square wave, the current is changing. The changing current is what is
> | generating the changing manetic field which is what is generating the
> | counter EMF. This continues as long as the core does not saturate.
> | Jerry Silverman
> | Greentron Inc
> | 4 Newland Ave
> | Greenville SC 29609
> | 864 232 3889
> | Fax 271 2080
> | mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "George" <grndmstrg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:52 PM
> | Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround
amp
> | system protection ?
> |
> |
> | > Ok, what about the impedance loss of the transformer? When the square
> wave
> | > reaches the maximum volt it loses the changing potential that takes
> place
> | > when alternating current is applied, therefore no counter
electromotive
> | > force (EMF) is developed thus no reactance is developed, there will
only
> | be
> | > direct current resistance present, that can equal to damaging high
> current
> | > levels until it switches then high current again. I would hope the
> circuit
> | > has a primary fuse in place. Just my two cents worth.
> | >
> | > George
> | > Afana Electronics
> | > Moreno Valley, CA
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: <gulftech@xxxxxxxx>
> | > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 4:45 PM
> | > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround
> amp
> | > system protection ?
> | >
> | >
> | > > Come on Jerry,
> | > >
> | > > Since when is a square wave referred to as RMS?  That is only
applied
> to
> | > > normal AC of some given frequency.
> | > >
> | > > I would agree that a zero to +115 volt square wave would result in
> | 115VDC
> | > > output, but as far as ripple--you got to be kidding.  That would be
a
> | 50%
> | > > duty cycle, fed into a conventional bridge assuming no leakage.  It
> | would
> | > > also result in a higher than normal current for the diodes of the
> | bridge.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > Feeding 120 VAC 60Hz, the peak is (indeed) 169.68 volts.   (1.414 x
> | 120.)
> | > >  But, a square wave, 0-120, results in just 120 volts less decay
time
> | > > during non-conduction, with much less need for filtering.  Now, if
the
> | > > input were to be a -60 to +60 square wave, the result would still be
> the
> | > > same.  I have too much respect for your input not to challenge your
> | > > statement.  You said "Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run
> hotter
> | > > when fed a square wave."  Not true.  The avg. current of a sine wave
> | > > input is only 63%.  A square wave is either on or off.  That means
> 50%.
> | > > Now, even if the square wave was +/- 60 vdc, the average current
would
> | > > STILL BE LESS than 120v RMS.
> | > >
> | > > I don't often pick a problem with your posts.  You are a person I
> | > > respect.  However, I disagree with your statement.  I certainly
stand
> to
> | > > be wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time, but according to theory,
> | > > whether it be 0-120 V RMS  or -60-+60 square wave, will produce the
> same
> | > > average current.  The peak voltages would be of course different.
> Given
> | > > the separate inputs, 120 VAC to a bridge gives 169 volts peak.  A
> square
> | > > wave 120 dc input yeilds only 120 volts output, with lesser need for
> | > > filtering.  This is, of course, neglecting the diode drop.
> | > >
> | > > I don't know how this would affect equipment connected to a backup.
I
> | > > don't mean to keep this for discussion.  I personally feel that
> | comparing
> | > > computers to amplifiers for a load is not possible.  The computer
load
> | is
> | > > fairly constant, but the amplifier load is not.   The current draw
on
> a
> | > > computer is fairly constant.  That of an amp is dependent on both
the
> | > > source and the volume level selected.  I would suggest that the peak
> of
> | > > power required for an amp would be much higher than for a
> | > > computer/monitor.
> | > >
> | > > My apologies to Jay, the other TechAssist staff, and to those of you
> who
> | > > could care less.
> | > >
> | > > I don't mean to imply that this question has no merit.  It does.  It
> | > > gives all of us a chance to discuss the basics of our trade.
> | > >
> | > > I spent years teaching this stuff, but I have been wrong before.
Just
> | > > don't stop trying to learn.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > Ken Smith
> | > > Gulf Technical Services
> | > > 3034 Gulf Breeze Parkway
> | > > Gulf Breeze, FL  32563
> | > > 850-934-8324 (Voice) 850-932-0819 (Fax)
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > On Fri, 7 May 2004 17:38:51 -0400 "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx>
> | > > writes:
> | > > > If you have a 115 volt RMS square wave and rectify it and filter
it,
> | > > > you
> | > > > will get approx 115 VDC and practically no ripple. If you rectify
> | > > > and filter
> | > > > a 115 volt RMS sine wave you will get about 162 VDC and ripple
> | > > > depending on
> | > > > load. Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run hotter when fed
a
> | > > > square
> | > > > wave. Thinner laminations are used if the transformer has to
handle
> | > > > higher
> | > > > frequencies. Also the magnetron high voltage in a microwave is
> | > > > developed
> | > > > using a 60 Hertz transformer with a resonating capacitor, selected
t
> o
> | > > > resonate with the leakage inductance of the transformer. If you
want
> | > > > to
> | > > > change power sources for equipment, you have to keep these things
in
> | > > > mind.
> | > > > Jerry Silverman
> | > > > Greentron Inc
> | > > > 4 Newland Ave
> | > > > Greenville SC 29609
> | > > > 864 232 3889
> | > > > Fax 271 2080
> | > > > mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
> | > > > ----- Original Message -----
> | > > > From: "Ty" <ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:23 PM
> | > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp
> | > > > system protection ?
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > > > This question has me intrigued. Why is it being debated by
> | > > > proficient
> | > > > > electronic technicians?
> | > > > > OK. MODERN televisions, VCRs, DVDs, anything with a pulse power
> | > > > supply.
> | > > > > Reasoning that modern Pulse Power supplies essentially run on
DC,
> | > > > I was
> | > > > > wondering what difference it makes what kind of sign, square, or
> | > > > whatever,
> | > > > > wave gets rectified in order to charge the primary filter
> | > > > capacitor. As
> | > > > long
> | > > > > as the filter is charged to the critical starting voltage and is
> | > > > maintained.
> | > > > > Of course, you will have to raise the input to meet the output
> | > > > criteria.
> | > > > > Heck, you can use DC for input and you can even ignore the
> | > > > polarity due to
> | > > > > the bridge!.
> | > > > > Mmmmm....
> | > > > > Take a voltage reading on the main filter cap under full load.
> | > > > > Connect a bunch of batteries to attain the voltage. Connect it
> | > > > across the
> | > > > > filter and you got your problem solved. Instant UPS. Of course,
> | > > > you will
> | > > > > have to modify the ON/OFF switch. Another problem is charging
> | > > > inrush. Use
> | > > > a
> | > > > > diode and resistor combination. Heck, we can figure it out!
> | > > > > Now the 10 lb transformer in a power amplifier or in the
Microwave
> | > > > is
> | > > > > another story, but not impossible if batteries are used after
the
> | > > > > transformer. Storage would be a problem. Where would you store
> | > > > enough
> | > > > > batteries to power a Magnetron and finish cooking that turkey.
> | > > > > Lets see. Move the holyday dishes to the basement, move the
> | > > > regular dishes
> | > > > > to where the holyday dishes were, and WALLA!  LOOK OUT TURKEY!
> | > > > > Just realized the biggest obstacle to my simple idea. How am I
> | > > > going to
> | > > > get
> | > > > > the wife to allow me to drill a hole in the countertop...
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Have fun! >(;o)
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Ty
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Tiberius Kraemer
> | > > > > BLUE STAR ELECTRONICS
> | > > > > 3312 Silverton Rd. NE
> | > > > > Salem, Oregon
> | > > > > Phone: 503 391 1491
> | > > > > Mailto:ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > > -----Original Message-----
> | > > > > From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > [mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Phil Bader
> | > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:44 AM
> | > > > > To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > > amp system protection ?
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Shoot, jerry why are your facts so depressing!
> | > > > > Seriously, I called APC, and the tech said the "stepped sine
wave"
> | > > > > versions may not work satisfactorily with , say, an engraving
> | > > > machine
> | > > > > (My next door neighbor has a trophy shop). he suggested their
> | > > > better
> | > > > > Smart UPS line, I think its called.Anyway, it would be sort of
> self
> | > > > > defeating to destroy the very thing you are wanting to
protect...
> | > > > > Phil Bader
> | > > > >
> | > > > > J Silverman wrote:
> | > > > >
> | > > > > >The computer power supplies work fine with the 115 VAC (RMS)
> | > > > square wave
> | > > > > >output from the low cost UPSs. Most consumer electronic
equipment
> | > > > is
> | > > > rated
> | > > > > >for 115 volt RMS 60 Hertz sine wave, plus or minus 10%. If you
> | > > > use the
> | > > > > >computer UPS with consumer electronic equipment the internal
> | > > > voltages and
> | > > > > >losses are different than the spec., so you are not sure if you
> | > > > will have
> | > > > > >functional problems or if things will overheat. A lot of stuff
> | > > > will
> | > > > > probably
> | > > > > >work OK, but you cant be sure. So the suggestion was made to
use
> | > > > UPSs
> | > > > that
> | > > > > >have a sine wave output and these are many times more expensive
> | > > > than the
> | > > > > >ones with a square wave output.
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >Jerry Silverman
> | > > > > >Greentron Inc
> | > > > > >4 Newland Ave
> | > > > > >Greenville SC 29609
> | > > > > >864 232 3889
> | > > > > >Fax 271 2080
> | > > > > >mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
> | > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> | > > > > >From: "Kevin" <kevintv@xxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 5:30 AM
> | > > > > >Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > amp
> | > > > > >system protection ?
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >>Using a UPS for a computer is also designed to save what a
> | > > > person is
> | > > > > >>working on at the time of a power outage.  When the power goes
> | > > > out the
> | > > > > >>computer stays on and the person can save his work and then
shut
> | > > > the
> | > > > > >>computer down properly.  In some cases it will also prevent
data
> | > > > from
> | > > > > >>being corrupted on the hard drive when the power goes out.
> | > > > Having the
> | > > > > >>power outage causes windows to shut down improperly, which
could
> | > > > corrupt
> | > > > > >>data on the hard drive.
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>Kevin Wilks
> | > > > > >>Kevin's TV & Video Repair
> | > > > > >>Penticton BC Canada
> | > > > > >>kevintv@xxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> | > > > > >>From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>[mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hoyt's
TV
> | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 2:11 PM
> | > > > > >>To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > > >>amp system protection ?
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>Considering the price of some TVs and stereos these days, I'm
> | > > > surprised
> | > > > > >>they
> | > > > > >>don't push UPS's for those, like they do for computers.
> | > > > Computers were
> | > > > > >>the
> | > > > > >>first things that were overly sensitive but TVs etc. have now
> | > > > caught up.
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>Russ Hoyt
> | > > > > >>Hoyt's TV
> | > > > > >>Exeter, NH
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>----- Original Message -----
> | > > > > >>From: "Larry Poffen" <lpoffen@xxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 3:46 PM
> | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > > >>amp
> | > > > > >>system protection ?
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>I have used a APC 1000 for my personal stuff for about 2
years.
> | > > >  I had
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>a
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>power surge that took it out this year, along with many other
> | > > > things,
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>but
> | > > > > >>my
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>36" TV  &VCR/  stereo stuff were all OK.  It is worth the
peace
> | > > > of
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>mind.
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>Larry
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>Larrys TV Service
> | > > > > >>>Broken Arrow OK 74011
> | > > > > >>>phone 918-455-1041
> | > > > > >>>Fax 918-451-4485
> | > > > > >>>e-mail lpoffen@xxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>>----- Original Message -----
> | > > > > >>>From: "Phil Bader" <tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:06 AM
> | > > > > >>>Subject: [TechAssist] use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp
> | > > > > >>>system protection ?
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>>I never heard of anyone doing this, but I've had this
thought
> | > > > for a
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>few
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>years:
> | > > > > >>>>use a heavy battery back up UPS like used on PC systems for
an
> | > > > > >>>>entertainment center. Many ills are from power
> | > > > > >>>>fluctuations,sags,surges,etc. TV EEPROMs corrupted, power
> | > > > supplies
> | > > > > >>>>damaged, pro-jo CRTs damaged with  a spot because it went
down
> | > > > at
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>once
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>without proper power down,etc.
> | > > > > >>>>Most equipement is not a heavy current draw.
> | > > > > >>>>Can this be done and should it?
> | > > > > >>>>I have a Zenith 50" projection TV (not wide screen,standard
> | > > > 3:4)
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>which
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>is rated at 215 watts (2.8A) "max".
> | > > > > >>>> I think my VCR/DVD deck pulls maybe 30 watts.
> | > > > > >>>>My Bose "lifestyle 7" surround amp, I don't know the
wattage.
> | > > > > >>>>And a cable box maybe another 30 watts?
> | > > > > >>>>I'm guessing 300-400 watts max running everything
> | > > > > >>>> if using the sound system as well. Much less if using only
> the
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>projo's
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>speakers.
> | > > > > >>>>Now most of these UPS units are in standby mode and  the
> | > > > connected
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>gear
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>is running off line current until there is a power loss,
which
> | > > > time
> | > > > > >>>>ultra-fast switching transferrs power to the battery system.
> | > > > This
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>would
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>be only needed for intermittant power fluctuations, or if
lost
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>totally,
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>enough time to safely power off the audio/video system.
> | > > > > >>>>A 6 outlet power strip plugged into the UPS would be
> | > > > convenient.
> | > > > > >>>>What would be a good power rating for a UPS?
> | > > > > >>>>Twice needed wattage? whats rule of thumb, and also whats
your
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>feedback
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>on this idea?
> | > > > > >>>>Phil Bader
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>--
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>Philip Bader
> | > > > > >>>>Jan Phyl TV Inc. (estab. 1976)
> | > > > > >>>>3420 Recker Hwy. Winter Haven, Fl. 33880
> | > > > > >>>>Fax (863) 299-8821
> | > > > > >>>>email: tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > >
> | >
> |
>
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