Dear Zhangkun, Can you tell us what the mistake was?? Best Regards Charles Grasso Senior Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Email: charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx; Email Alternate: chasgrasso@xxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: Zhangkun [mailto:zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 2:31 AM To: si-list Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: nonlinear in power ground noise of clock driver Dear All: We re-measured the noise of CDC2516. We made one mistake when we measure the noise yesterday. Now the simulation and measurement agree to each other. There is no non-linear. Sorry for disturbing. Best Regards Zhangkun 2003.12.5 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Peyton" <p2rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <gene.glick@xxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:35 AM Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: nonlinear in power ground noise of clock driver > Here's an interesting article on Ferrite beads that would be of > interest = to you. =20 > > http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/11/may.html > > > Rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] = On Behalf Of Glick, Gene > (IndSys, Interlogix) > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 1:40 PM > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: nonlinear in power ground noise of clock driver > > > Can someone enlighten me on ferrite bead behaviour? My rudimentary > =3D understanding of these non-linear devices (and I've never persued > it any = =3D > further) is that they act as frequency dependent resistors. Do they > =3D = have inductance as well? What other non-linear stuff is going > on there? > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx = > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On > Behalf Of Raymond Anderson > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 1:23 PM > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: nonlinear in power ground noise of clock driver > > > In this particular case with the info given I can't be sure if the =3D > difference seen is caused by just the difference in the decap ESR or > by = the =3D difference in ESR combined with the LC filter design. I'd > kind of = guess it > is a =3D function of the ceramic cap having a much lower ESR. > > As Dav0 wrote, LC power filters can be very problematic is not > designed correctly. The problem stems from the fact that the filter > (be it pi, t, = =3D or L > section) is being driven from a very low impedance source (say 10's of > milliohms or less) and is loaded by a moderate (10's or 100's of ohms) = > =3D > load. The large ratio of load to source impedance can cause huge (10 or = > 20 > dB =3D or > more) peaking in the filter's response. A filter that you might hope has = > =3D a > nice low pass roll-off at about 10 kHz may have 20 dB peaking very near = > =3D to > that frequency. A person might think they could synthesize a proper =3D > low-pass filter using classical synthesis methods to produce a nice > Butterworth =3D (or > whatever) LPF. On paper you can, but you will find the element values = > =3D are > essentially unrealizable. A filter that is driven from near zero =3D = > impedance > into say a 100 ohm load with a cutoff freq of around 10 kHz can require > Henries of inductance and perhaps Farads of capacitance (not the sort of > thing you want on your PCB. You can actually measure more noise on the = > =3D > filter output than on the input (due in part to the different impedance = > =3D > levels). The typical cure is to place a small amount of resistance in = > series > with the inductor to effectively de-Q it and limit the circulating = > current > or as =3D Dave mentioned, go to a RC filter instead of an LC filter. = > Build > yourself a =3D good=3D20 spice model of the filter and play around with = > it to > understand what is =3D going=3D20 on. BTW, you can generate a pretty = > good model > for the ferrite or =3D powdered iron=3D20 inductive element, but you = > won't find > it in the vendor's data sheets or =3D web site. > > > > > -Ray Anderson > Staff SI Engineer > Sun Microsystems Inc. > Menlo Park, CA > > > Dav0 Lieby wrote: > > >I had this experience a while ago. > >It boils down to the bead and the > >capacitance. We found a resonant > >circuit. Various capacitors gave > >huge noise results, another lot of > >them was OK. The final solution > >we did was to replace the bead with > >a resistor, the clock chip did not > >eat too much current so it did not > >go out operational range. =3D20 > > > >dav0 > >David Lieby > >Siemens Medical Systems, Ultrasound Division > > =3D20 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: =3D20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=3D20 > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =3D20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: =20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=20 > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu