Iliya, Regrettably we have not published any results from these experiments, though I would very much like to. It's a matter of budgeting the time ;-) As we discussed a few years ago when we last spoke -- I've observed in our experimental results the same behaviors addressed in your papers, and I think the mathematical relations you've mapped onto those behaviors are very helpful. -mark From: Iliya Zamek [mailto:i_zamek@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 11:23 AM To: Mark Alexander; Vijay Chachra Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; steve weir Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Plane Noise Injection Thank you Mark, This is a really hot problem at the development of any nm-devices. We putted significant resources to address Power Integrity, power induced Jitter, and still there are many aspects of it to study further. You mentioned using shift registers to imitate the logic activities. It would be interesting to see these experiements. Do you have any links to show results? It would be very interesting to see it, and I'll appreciate if you provide some links. Thank you. Regards, Iliya From: Mark Alexander <mark.alexander@xxxxxxxxxx> To: Iliya Zamek <i_zamek@xxxxxxxxx>; Vijay Chachra <vijaychachra@xxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 10:13 AM Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Plane Noise Injection Nice work Iliya! From: Iliya Zamek [mailto:i_zamek@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:18 PM To: Vijay Chachra Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Mark Alexander; steve weir Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Plane Noise Injection Hello Vijay, Generation noise for the PDN with nm-chip itself is very effective. You can generate stationary Power noise using clock, or 1-0-1-0 pattern, as Mark described. At some Aggressor and Victim frequencies' combinations the aggressor impact will be worst and at some frequencies' combinations aggressor impact on the victim will be minimum. You may found the theory and examples of experiements in http://www.altera.com/literature/cp/cp-01042-modeling-fpga-current-wavef orm-and-spectrum-and-pdn-noise-estimation.pdf for the PDN noise analysis, and for the aggressor impacting the Victim Jitter in http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber603875, and http://www.altera.com/literature/cp/cp-01048-jitter-resonance.pdf Nonstationary aggressor case you can create with PRBS, or "burst" pattern. Some methods and examples of the modeling you can find there: http://www.designcon.com/2010/DCPDFs/10-TH2_Iliya_Zamek.pdf Thank you. Best regards, Iliya Zamek From: Mark Alexander <mark.alexander@xxxxxxxxxx> To: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>; Vijay Chachra <vijaychachra@xxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 11:29 AM Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Plane Noise Injection Vijay, In characterizing the power networks of Xilinx FPGAs we most often use the DUT as the noise generator. We have had limited success with using a second "noise generation" FPGA to generate and transmit noise to a separate DUT victim FPGA, but this requires building a complex and specialized board. Small isolated power networks (transceivers, PLLs, etc.) have a high enough impedance that it's possible to drive noise into them with a broadband power amplifier, but this doesn't work for large core power systems. When using the DUT as the noise generator (our primary approach), the simplest thing to do is build a giant shift register out of most of the device's flops, and shift a 1-0-1-0 pattern through it. Shifting PRBS patterns with various toggle densities approximates the activity of various datapaths and data types. By sweeping the clock frequency and working with the size of the shift-register, most potential designs can be approximated. Similar noise generators are built out of all major resources: DSP blocks, BlockRAM and other functional blocks, to characterize their noise generation potential. Whether the intention is to characterize PDN noise or the performance impact of such noise (clock jitter, etc.) dictates the choice of probe type and capture method. Careful experiment design and hygiene is obviously important (plenty of null tests, use of symmetry, attention to metrics). This kind of testing provides no end of useful and interesting information, though it takes a surprising amount of time, effort, debug and refinement. Regards, mark -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:08 PM To: Vijay Chachra Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Plane Noise Injection Vijay, I am sorry I don't know of any publications on this subject. I only know what I have done in my own work. Steve On 9/1/2011 8:32 PM, Vijay Chachra wrote: > Steve, > As a follow-up question...Is there a reference available which I can > refer to for understanding how programmable device can help in noise > injection on power plane? > Will a simple LFSR type design work as "good enough" noise injector or > Are there other tried and tested designs available? > Thanks > Vijay > > > --- On *Fri, 9/2/11, steve weir /<weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>/* wrote: > > > From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Plane Noise Injection > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 6:17 AM > > Jason, the issues at HF is coming up with enough raw power, and > then a > low enough impedance connection to the PDN. It is much easier to > characterize devices on a purpose-built test PCB. A large > CPLD/FPGA on > the test PCB makes a good programmable noise generator. > > Steve. > On 9/1/2011 2:21 PM, jason.pritchard@xxxxxxx > <http://us.mc1373.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jason.pritchard@xxxxxxx> > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I have an application that I want to create noise on a power > rail and determine the effects of that noise on a device. > > > > 1) What methods have people used to do this type of testing? > > 2) If you use an RF transformer can you recommend a specific > type/model that works effectively with the lower impedance of the > power planes as a load? > > > > I would like to simulate DC-DC switching noise as well as high > frequency noise. > > > > Any suggestions will be helpful. > > > > Thank-you, > > Jason > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > <http://us.mc1373.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=si-list-request@freelists .org> > with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > <http://us.mc1373.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=si-list-request@freelists .org> > with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > -- > Steve Weir > IPBLOX, LLC > 150 N. Center St. #211 > Reno, NV 89501 > www.ipblox.com > > (775) 299-4236 Business > (866) 675-4630 Toll-free > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > <http://us.mc1373.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=si-list-request@freelists .org> > with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > <http://us.mc1373.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=si-list-request@freelists .org> > with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. 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