[SI-LIST] Re: Majic Fbaud/1667 for CDR bandwidth

Vinu that premise sounds questionable to me.  I think any  resonance 
that causes substantial movement in the timing estimate must by 
definition move the associated data.  As long as the PLL is properly 
damped ( many are not ) the wide bandwidth loop should track much better 
and exhibit a lower error rate than a norow loop.

Steve
Vinu Arumugham wrote:
> Steve,
> Regarding, "generally in a CDR scheme we want to track at as high a rate as 
> we can.", there is at least one situation where tracking at a high rate can 
> degrade performance.
> When an interconnect has a resonance that causes pattern dependent prop. 
> delay variations, a clock like pattern can drag the sampling point away from 
> the middle of the eye. When the data pattern changes back to random, one can 
> encounter errors. With fast tracking one would need shorter clock-like 
> sequences to   trigger this failure. With a scrambled data stream and a CDR 
> that only reacts to long clock-like sequences, the probability of such errors 
> can be reduced below the BER of interest.
>
> Thanks,
> Vinu
>   
>
> steve weir wrote:
>> Steve, generally in a CDR scheme we want to track at as high a rate as 
>> we can.  We can dump the results into an elastic store and then use a 
>> second PLL with a lower rate to smooth out the bumps for reading out the 
>> elastic store and/or forwarding.
>>
>> I don't know why XAUI has such a tall ratio.  Either there is some break 
>> in the 8b/10b pattern possible, or it seems to be about 50 times taller 
>> than it needs to.
>>
>> Steve.
>> Steve Waldstein wrote:
>>   
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your answer but I'm still a little perplexed. In a PLL the loop
>>> bandwidth typically wants to be about a factor of 10 lower than the
>>> transition density in the reference clock to the PDF. But pushing the
>>> bandwidth lower will allow a noiser (more jitter) reference clock at the
>>> expense of seeing increased VCO jitter. The opposite it true where you use a
>>> higher loop bandwidth to clean up the VCO but you suffer from clock noise
>>> passing through the loop bandwidth that causes output jitter.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there is a similar analogy for the CDR. A lower loop bandwidth
>>> should produce a cleaner recovered clock but makes the loop less agile to
>>> data changes. A higher loop bandwidth makes the loop more agile but produces
>>> more jitter on the output. 
>>>
>>> Lets use an example for discussion. XAUI has Fbaud = 3.125 Gb/s and 8b/10b
>>> (or 10Q) encoded. Yet its corner frequency is set at 3.215/1667 = 1.87 MHz.
>>> Is this because XAUI want to recover a clock and recreate it to some kind of
>>> PPM accuracy similar its input spec of +/- 100 PPM? I know SONET had
>>> repeaters in it where the clock recreation was important but on most serial
>>> links that's not the case. So since you said Fbaud/30 was typically
>>> sufficient to recover the day why burden the receiver with such a narrow
>>> loop bandwidth? 
>>>
>>> Is it really related to the fact that at +/- 100 PPM one skip is inserted
>>> every 5000 symbols so the 1667 provides margin to this by a factor of 3?
>>>
>>> I've also seen calculation that predict the jitter of a sinusoidal
>>> modulation of the carrier that relate to the equivalent PPM. It the corner
>>> really set to handle this type of issue? And not ability to recover the
>>> data?
>>>
>>> I know these are a lot of questions but your answer doesn't help understand
>>> why these standards have chosen such a low loop bandwitch.
>>>
>>> Steve W.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>> Behalf Of steve weir
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:38 PM
>>> To: Steve Waldstein
>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Majic Fbaud/1667 for CDR bandwidth
>>>
>>> Steve the loop B/W has to do with:
>>>
>>> The available repetitive data rate.
>>> Reasonable phase / gain margin for the loop filter.
>>>
>>> Each of the various data transmission standards are different in the way 
>>> that they can mess up a CDR, with the net result that many standards 
>>> need very tall ratios between Fbaud and Fcorner.  Basically, you can 
>>> easily achieve very stable operation by setting Fcorner = Frepeat / 5.  
>>> With some care you can set it to Frepeat / 3, where Frepeat is the 
>>> guaranteed lowest repetitive full 1-0 cycle.  For a pure 8B/10Q coded 
>>> link, Fcorner can be as high as Fbaud / 30 and work well. 
>>>
>>> As Chris Cheng has bemoaned, TIE and jitter in general both get worse 
>>> with taller ratios as the VCO drifts ( or is disturbed by things like 
>>> PDN noise ) over more bit intervals without the benefit of corrective 
>>> feedback.
>>>
>>> Steve.
>>>
>>> Steve Waldstein wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>> I know many serial specifications place the corner frequency of a CDR at
>>>> Fbaud/1667. I also know that the FC-MJSQ discusses how this was shifted
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>> from
>>>   
>>>     
>>>> the Fbaud/2500 established for SONET. What I can't find is a good
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>> discussion
>>>   
>>>     
>>>> on how to set CDR loop bandwidth for new serial specification. It appears
>>>> there's some relation the desired frequency accuracy or ppm but haven't
>>>> found a good derivation.  Can anyone provide a good reference relating to
>>>> choosing loop bandwidth based on desired output jitter or what ever else
>>>> helps set this corner frequency.
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Steve Waldstein
>>>>
>>>> E-mail: swldstn@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> Mobile: (207) 749-6260
>>>>
>>>> Home:  (207) 885-0594
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>   
>>>     
>>
>>
>>   
>


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