Vinu that premise sounds questionable to me. I think any resonance that causes substantial movement in the timing estimate must by definition move the associated data. As long as the PLL is properly damped ( many are not ) the wide bandwidth loop should track much better and exhibit a lower error rate than a norow loop. Steve Vinu Arumugham wrote: > Steve, > Regarding, "generally in a CDR scheme we want to track at as high a rate as > we can.", there is at least one situation where tracking at a high rate can > degrade performance. > When an interconnect has a resonance that causes pattern dependent prop. > delay variations, a clock like pattern can drag the sampling point away from > the middle of the eye. When the data pattern changes back to random, one can > encounter errors. With fast tracking one would need shorter clock-like > sequences to trigger this failure. With a scrambled data stream and a CDR > that only reacts to long clock-like sequences, the probability of such errors > can be reduced below the BER of interest. > > Thanks, > Vinu > > > steve weir wrote: >> Steve, generally in a CDR scheme we want to track at as high a rate as >> we can. We can dump the results into an elastic store and then use a >> second PLL with a lower rate to smooth out the bumps for reading out the >> elastic store and/or forwarding. >> >> I don't know why XAUI has such a tall ratio. Either there is some break >> in the 8b/10b pattern possible, or it seems to be about 50 times taller >> than it needs to. >> >> Steve. >> Steve Waldstein wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> >>> Thanks for your answer but I'm still a little perplexed. In a PLL the loop >>> bandwidth typically wants to be about a factor of 10 lower than the >>> transition density in the reference clock to the PDF. But pushing the >>> bandwidth lower will allow a noiser (more jitter) reference clock at the >>> expense of seeing increased VCO jitter. The opposite it true where you use a >>> higher loop bandwidth to clean up the VCO but you suffer from clock noise >>> passing through the loop bandwidth that causes output jitter. >>> >>> I'm sure there is a similar analogy for the CDR. A lower loop bandwidth >>> should produce a cleaner recovered clock but makes the loop less agile to >>> data changes. A higher loop bandwidth makes the loop more agile but produces >>> more jitter on the output. >>> >>> Lets use an example for discussion. XAUI has Fbaud = 3.125 Gb/s and 8b/10b >>> (or 10Q) encoded. Yet its corner frequency is set at 3.215/1667 = 1.87 MHz. >>> Is this because XAUI want to recover a clock and recreate it to some kind of >>> PPM accuracy similar its input spec of +/- 100 PPM? I know SONET had >>> repeaters in it where the clock recreation was important but on most serial >>> links that's not the case. So since you said Fbaud/30 was typically >>> sufficient to recover the day why burden the receiver with such a narrow >>> loop bandwidth? >>> >>> Is it really related to the fact that at +/- 100 PPM one skip is inserted >>> every 5000 symbols so the 1667 provides margin to this by a factor of 3? >>> >>> I've also seen calculation that predict the jitter of a sinusoidal >>> modulation of the carrier that relate to the equivalent PPM. It the corner >>> really set to handle this type of issue? And not ability to recover the >>> data? >>> >>> I know these are a lot of questions but your answer doesn't help understand >>> why these standards have chosen such a low loop bandwitch. >>> >>> Steve W. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >>> Behalf Of steve weir >>> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:38 PM >>> To: Steve Waldstein >>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Majic Fbaud/1667 for CDR bandwidth >>> >>> Steve the loop B/W has to do with: >>> >>> The available repetitive data rate. >>> Reasonable phase / gain margin for the loop filter. >>> >>> Each of the various data transmission standards are different in the way >>> that they can mess up a CDR, with the net result that many standards >>> need very tall ratios between Fbaud and Fcorner. Basically, you can >>> easily achieve very stable operation by setting Fcorner = Frepeat / 5. >>> With some care you can set it to Frepeat / 3, where Frepeat is the >>> guaranteed lowest repetitive full 1-0 cycle. For a pure 8B/10Q coded >>> link, Fcorner can be as high as Fbaud / 30 and work well. >>> >>> As Chris Cheng has bemoaned, TIE and jitter in general both get worse >>> with taller ratios as the VCO drifts ( or is disturbed by things like >>> PDN noise ) over more bit intervals without the benefit of corrective >>> feedback. >>> >>> Steve. >>> >>> Steve Waldstein wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I know many serial specifications place the corner frequency of a CDR at >>>> Fbaud/1667. I also know that the FC-MJSQ discusses how this was shifted >>>> >>>> >>> from >>> >>> >>>> the Fbaud/2500 established for SONET. What I can't find is a good >>>> >>>> >>> discussion >>> >>> >>>> on how to set CDR loop bandwidth for new serial specification. It appears >>>> there's some relation the desired frequency accuracy or ppm but haven't >>>> found a good derivation. Can anyone provide a good reference relating to >>>> choosing loop bandwidth based on desired output jitter or what ever else >>>> helps set this corner frequency. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> __________________________________ >>>> >>>> Steve Waldstein >>>> >>>> E-mail: swldstn@xxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>> Mobile: (207) 749-6260 >>>> >>>> Home: (207) 885-0594 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>>> >>>> For help: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> >>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>> http://www.si-list.net >>>> >>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>> or at our remote archives: >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu