Re: Java Resources?

  • From: Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:16:52 -0500

Hi Jay, Excellent explanations again, and it gives me plenty to take into account moving forward. I'll speak to the professor of the OOP course; I definitely see the value in doing so for everyone. Thanks again for all the helpful info, and I'm sure you'll hear more from me as things progress. 


Jared

Macarty, Jay {PBSG} wrote:

Jared,
Speaking from my own experiences with java and swing, I'll make the
following observations. I work in a group that supports and enhances a
very large java framework application with several sub applications. The
user interface is a swing driven one with 50+ menu selections and 38
server processes in the background to support the various client
options. I started out as a programmer on this team and am now the
technical lead; so, in response to your question about being able to
productively function within this environment, I'd say that it is
certainly possible. However, you make a accurate assumption in stating
that it is very helpful to collaborate on analyzing and updating the
swing code logic itself to ensure that one has achieved the desired
results. 
Currently, the most well known and accepted mechanism for dealing with
swing is through the java access bridge technology. While many advances
have been made over the past couple of years with both the access bridge
software and the support for it in jaws, my own experience has been that
very complex swing applications are still difficult to navigate
comfortably. If a swing based application is well designed and
constructed and if, even better, the developers coded the application to
make it easier for screen reading technologies to access the screens
(full support for keyboard navigation, logical tabbing orders, good use
of tool tips and setting accessible options, etc.), then that
application can be fairly usable. Unfortunately, it is very easy to
develop swing based applications which do not take these concepts into
consideration and there are many such products currently out there. 
Here's one thing I would suggest you might consider discussing with your
java instructor depending on how comfortable you are. When the course
work turns to swing (which it will very likely do so), IBM has develops
some excellent guidelines on how to code applications which maximize
accessibility. If the instructor is agreeable, it would probably benefit
both you and the members of the class to spend some class time talking
about the topic of accessibility and how to code for it in swing
applications. Sadly enough, most java books spend little or no time
discussing this topic; so, it is entirely possible that your book for
the course doesn't address this specifically. However, it is certainly a
benefit to all parties concerned to spend a little time and maybe even
code an assignment using the IBM guidelines. 
To summarize then, is it possible for a blind person to make a living
working within a large, heavily java oriented programming environment?
The answer is certainly yes; however, I don't think you are creating
phantom obstacles at all in realizing that java can present challenges
you might or might not encounter with Windows based application
platforms. SWT certainly offers a more accessible java interface but it
is still an add-on and isn't as widely used in what is termed "fat
clients" as swing for java applications. It is possible to write "good"
java code that at least works to maximize accessibility but
unfortunately, it is all too easy to create code that is not
accessibility friendly as well. 
The java access bridge is one technology approach to addressing the
topic of swing access. However, its support by the screen reader
community is limited and the benefits of the bridge break down quickly
when an application is poorly designed. Designing an accessibility
solution for swing that is purely java based is another approach and
allows the software much more flexibility in attempting to analyze and
"fix" access to applications which are less than optimally designed.
Such solutions are also independent of the Windows screen readers being
used on the same workstation. This is the hope and objective of
developing the java screen reader. 
Thanks for your questions and comments.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 4:24 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java Resources?
Hi Jay and others, Just running through possible scenarios mentally, I came across the following curiosity. In your experiences, does the inaccessibility of swing disallow you to contribute to programs that utilize it? Of course, I'd never create anything from scratch using swing as it stands now, considering its current disadvantages. And certainly there would need to be some cooperation with others who have familiarity with the project to ensure the program achieves the desired results at runtime. But if for this upcoming OOP course or sometime entirely in the future I was given something already coded that utilizes
swing, what would I need to do to generally prepare myself to analyze and perhaps modify that program? Am I overthinking myself into coming up
with phantom obstacles? I'm just starting with Java, so this is a more long term issue, but it'll be something to integrate into my learning roadmap. Thanks in advance for any clarification. 

Jared

Macarty, Jay {PBSG} wrote:

Jared,
In its simplest form, the difference between swing and SWT, from an
accessibility perspective, is that SWT uses the underlying components

of

the operating system to render the objects on the screen like buttons

or

check boxes. Swing, on the other hand, works to achieve platform
independence by painting its own graphics representations of

components

rather than lying on the operating system. While this offers some
constancy in behavior and look-and-feel for swing, it poses problems

for

screens reading software. Swing is the more common GUI tool for java,

at

this time, because the API package is included automatically with the
java development and runtime cores where as SWT is an add-on API. 
The most common approach to resolving the issue of a screen reader not
being able to tell what is going on inside a java program is a
technology add-on for java called the Java Access Bridge or JAB. This
technology attempts to expose the java objects to the outside world
where a screen reader can access it; however, the screen reader must

be

coded with logic to utilize the access bridge API. At this time,

neither

Windows-Eyes nor System Access have releases which include the Java
Access Bridge support. 
While java can be an accessibility obstacle, the ironic thing is that

it

actually contains one of the best accessibility frameworks around. Its
just a matter of being able to best take advantage of the framework

that

is there. This is where the java screen reader I and Sina have been
working on comes into play. Our thoughts were that the best way to

take

advantage of the full power of the java accessibility framework is

from

within java itself not through a bridge technology. This is the

approach
we have individually taken and hope to merge. 
More on the status of the java screen reader and the SSIP server

later.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared

Wright

Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 2:20 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java Resources?
Hi there Jay, Very good advice, which I have catalogued away and will certainly try to keep in the forefront of my mind as I dive in. As
much
as learning Java, I'm using Java as a medium to try and learn OOP properly, and what you've told me helps me to validate this particular 


approach.
I am familiar with the trouble Window Eyes has with Java GUIs, although the particulars of it which you've explained do fill in some 
of
the gaps. Can you point me to where I can learn more about the differences between swing and SWT? I gather that SWT does not have the 


accessibility problems that  swing does, or at least not as

prominently.
I'm sure there's a reason why swing is the GUI used by most Java applications I've run across. Is there any specific factor that makes swing preferable in these cases? I admit I am coming to this very
green 
on Java, so I don't know a ton about its various nuts and bolts or
what
they're used for. I'm sure this will come in time. I do not know yet what will or will not be used in the class, but for now I'm mostly getting a head start simply for my own edification. And I'll anxiously
await more news on your Java screen reader as well as the SSIP voice server. I've seen some traffic about this on the list, but I'll admit that I didn't quite understand its ramifications just by skimming the relevant posts. I'll start paying closer atention to its progress now for certain. Thanks a lot for the helpful feedback, and I'll be sure
to 
ask more questions as I think of them.

Jared

Macarty, Jay {PBSG} wrote:

Jared,
The primary advice I can offer, as you enter the world of object
oriented programming, is something my college adviser in computer
science told me a long time ago. Spend the time up front to learn the
fundamentals and the rest will come much easier. When I first learned
java, I came from a background of 12+ years working with languages

such

as COBOL, C, and REXX. It took a little while to get down the idea of
thinking of programs in terms of objects. Take the time to learn the
fundamentals of OO, such as inheritance, polymorphism, and

encapsulation

and what they "really" mean in terms of constructing a program or
project. Once you get down the principles, the specific language,

such

as java, ruby, C#, etc., becomes a matter of learning the syntax of

how

to apply those principles in a given language. I've seen way too many

so

called "experienced" java programmers with code that still looks like

it
was just converted COBOL code. 
Another reason to concentrate on the principles of OO and understand
them well is the emerging emphasis on a system architecture approach
known as service oriented architecture or SOA. SOA takes many of the

OO

programming ideas you will learn, such as encapsulation and loose
coupling, and applies those principles to services (that is

autonomous

peaces of business functionality and composites of those basic

services)

instead of just programs. Like object oriented programming, SOA, is a
way of thinking and not just a bunch of applications put together as

web

services. Your grasp of OO programming will serve you well if you get

it

down now in both the areas of programming languages and system
architectures. 
As for your being a Window-Eyes user, I have been told by the good

folks

over at GW Micro that java support is coming in a future release;
however, as it stands today, you may have some obstacles when it

comes

to working with java's primary GUI interface called swing. As long as
your class is spending time on using java as the back-end of web
applications (such as JSP, java server faces, and servlets) or if you
get into using the GUI interface called SWT, you'll likely be okay.

But

when you start using swing, Window-Eyes 6.1 will not read the

screens.

I

don't have a timeframe on when java support will be available in
Window-Eyes (I've asked to be a beta tester). I've recently revived

my

own java based screen reader which I hadn't worked on for a couple of
years seriously. I've still got some work to do and am looking

forward

to comparing notes with Sina on some similar work; however, my screen
reader works exactly the same under JAWS, Window-Eyes, and System
Access. I hope to release a beta version of the screen reader, along
with version 1.0 of the SSIP voice server, within the next couple of
weeks.

Good luck on your studies and we look forward to hearing of your
progress. 
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared

Wright

Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:26 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Java Resources?
Hi Everyone, Next semester I start a course on object oriented programming with Java as its instructional language. Probably high
time
I get familiar with it anyhow. I've grabbed all of Jamal's Java documentation from Inthin's page and wanted to check for any tips or resources you all might have on working with Java, either generally 
or

as relates the accessibility puzzle. Given the wealth of information
in 
Jamal's archive, I'll also welcome any feedback on what you consider

the

most effective learning resources, either in his archive or

otherwise.
For context's sake, I am a Window Eyes user and am not yet all that efficient in Linux, but it is another one of my current persistent projects, so if there are any resources that are head and shoulders above anything else and not on Windows, I'm open to giving it a shot. 


Definitley more at home on Windows still though. Thanks in advance

for

any responses, which I do look forward to reading.

Best,
Jared
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