Hi Jay, A more than satisfying explanation. I'll definitely be confirming these details with the professor and ensuring that we can find ways to work around swing for the time being. Given your comparison of the two, I don't think he'll have any complaints.
Concerning the java screen reader...Utilizing Java itself does seem a logical way of going about it. Exciting stuff, and I can't wait to hear about its continued progress.
Thanks again,
Jared
Macarty, Jay {PBSG} wrote:
Jared, In its simplest form, the difference between swing and SWT, from an accessibility perspective, is that SWT uses the underlying components of the operating system to render the objects on the screen like buttons or check boxes. Swing, on the other hand, works to achieve platform independence by painting its own graphics representations of components rather than lying on the operating system. While this offers some constancy in behavior and look-and-feel for swing, it poses problems for screens reading software. Swing is the more common GUI tool for java, at this time, because the API package is included automatically with thejava development and runtime cores where as SWT is an add-on API.The most common approach to resolving the issue of a screen reader not being able to tell what is going on inside a java program is a technology add-on for java called the Java Access Bridge or JAB. This technology attempts to expose the java objects to the outside world where a screen reader can access it; however, the screen reader must be coded with logic to utilize the access bridge API. At this time, neither Windows-Eyes nor System Access have releases which include the JavaAccess Bridge support.While java can be an accessibility obstacle, the ironic thing is that it actually contains one of the best accessibility frameworks around. Its just a matter of being able to best take advantage of the framework that is there. This is where the java screen reader I and Sina have been working on comes into play. Our thoughts were that the best way to take advantage of the full power of the java accessibility framework is from within java itself not through a bridge technology. This is the approachwe have individually taken and hope to merge.More on the status of the java screen reader and the SSIP server later. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 2:20 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Java Resources?Hi there Jay, Very good advice, which I have catalogued away and will certainly try to keep in the forefront of my mind as I dive in. As much as learning Java, I'm using Java as a medium to try and learn OOP properly, and what you've told me helps me to validate this particular approach.I am familiar with the trouble Window Eyes has with Java GUIs, although the particulars of it which you've explained do fill in some ofthe gaps. Can you point me to where I can learn more about the differences between swing and SWT? I gather that SWT does not have the accessibility problems that swing does, or at least not as prominently.I'm sure there's a reason why swing is the GUI used by most Java applications I've run across. Is there any specific factor that makes swing preferable in these cases? I admit I am coming to this very green on Java, so I don't know a ton about its various nuts and bolts or what they're used for. I'm sure this will come in time. I do not know yet what will or will not be used in the class, but for now I'm mostly getting a head start simply for my own edification. And I'll anxiously await more news on your Java screen reader as well as the SSIP voice server. I've seen some traffic about this on the list, but I'll admit that I didn't quite understand its ramifications just by skimming the relevant posts. I'll start paying closer atention to its progress now for certain. Thanks a lot for the helpful feedback, and I'll be sure to ask more questions as I think of them.Jared Macarty, Jay {PBSG} wrote:Jared, The primary advice I can offer, as you enter the world of object oriented programming, is something my college adviser in computer science told me a long time ago. Spend the time up front to learn the fundamentals and the rest will come much easier. When I first learned java, I came from a background of 12+ years working with languagessuchas COBOL, C, and REXX. It took a little while to get down the idea of thinking of programs in terms of objects. Take the time to learn the fundamentals of OO, such as inheritance, polymorphism, andencapsulationand what they "really" mean in terms of constructing a program or project. Once you get down the principles, the specific language, such as java, ruby, C#, etc., becomes a matter of learning the syntax ofhowto apply those principles in a given language. I've seen way too manysocalled "experienced" java programmers with code that still looks likeitwas just converted COBOL code.Another reason to concentrate on the principles of OO and understand them well is the emerging emphasis on a system architecture approach known as service oriented architecture or SOA. SOA takes many of theOOprogramming ideas you will learn, such as encapsulation and loose coupling, and applies those principles to services (that is autonomous peaces of business functionality and composites of those basicservices)instead of just programs. Like object oriented programming, SOA, is a way of thinking and not just a bunch of applications put together aswebservices. Your grasp of OO programming will serve you well if you getitdown now in both the areas of programming languages and systemarchitectures.As for your being a Window-Eyes user, I have been told by the goodfolksover at GW Micro that java support is coming in a future release; however, as it stands today, you may have some obstacles when it comes to working with java's primary GUI interface called swing. As long as your class is spending time on using java as the back-end of web applications (such as JSP, java server faces, and servlets) or if you get into using the GUI interface called SWT, you'll likely be okay.Butwhen you start using swing, Window-Eyes 6.1 will not read the screens.Idon't have a timeframe on when java support will be available in Window-Eyes (I've asked to be a beta tester). I've recently revived my own java based screen reader which I hadn't worked on for a couple of years seriously. I've still got some work to do and am looking forward to comparing notes with Sina on some similar work; however, my screen reader works exactly the same under JAWS, Window-Eyes, and System Access. I hope to release a beta version of the screen reader, along with version 1.0 of the SSIP voice server, within the next couple of weeks. Good luck on your studies and we look forward to hearing of yourprogress.-----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of JaredWrighttimeSent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:26 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Java Resources?Hi Everyone, Next semester I start a course on object oriented programming with Java as its instructional language. Probably highI get familiar with it anyhow. I've grabbed all of Jamal's Java documentation from Inthin's page and wanted to check for any tips or resources you all might have on working with Java, either generally orinas relates the accessibility puzzle. Given the wealth of informationJamal's archive, I'll also welcome any feedback on what you considerthemost effective learning resources, either in his archive or otherwise.For context's sake, I am a Window Eyes user and am not yet all that efficient in Linux, but it is another one of my current persistent projects, so if there are any resources that are head and shoulders above anything else and not on Windows, I'm open to giving it a shot. Definitley more at home on Windows still though. Thanks in advance forany responses, which I do look forward to reading. Best, Jared __________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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