GNU/Linux AT Usability was:Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
- From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:01:46 -0400
Hi,
This discussion has bifurcated into a healthy debate about various parts of the
GNU Accessibility Statement and the usability of GNU/Linux systems by people
with vision impairment.
Speaking to the latter, my presentation at GNU's Libre Planet conference at the
Harvard Science Center a week ago started with, "The state of Free AT Software
is poor." This is the primary reason that rms and I got together to add
accessibility, for people with all sorts of disability to the GNU agenda and in
the world of free software in general.
I think some things are pretty good with orca and I like emacspeak (I'm a
lifelong emacs user so it feels right) but getting the SpeakUp Modified Fedora,
ostensibly a distro intended for use by blinks, installed on a cheap Acer
laptop required many, many hours on the phone with the two leading experts on
that distro to get it up and running. Sina pointed me to the vinux distro, a
Debian based install that has speech from boot up and is easy to get installed.
Besides the installation issues, there are tons of problems with GNOME and even
text console screen readers that make much of the experience fairly miserable
and, overall, accessibility is poor.
This is why Richard Stallman and I thought it would be a good idea to start an
accessibility initiative within GNU. Companies like Red Hat make a lot of money
selling distros and service contracts to the government without being held to
the same standards of Section 508 as their proprietary cousins.
I have my own opinion of where accessibility is best but we're taking on free
access technology software as a major goal and a lot of GNU hackers I've spoken
with, many at the conference, really want to help in one way or another.
Also, I want to reiterate that the GNU definition of "free" does not mean
without cost. In short, it means that you have the freedom to take the software
and change it, redistribute it and do pretty much anything you like as long as
you do not take the same freedoms away from anyone else. Red Hat, for instance,
makes a lot selling their distro but their customers can modify it, give it
away and do pretty much anything else they want to with the software.
For more on GNU philosophy, read the articles on www.gnu.org and, if you like,
jump in as a volunteer as we've a ton of work ahead of us.
Happy Hacking,
cdh
On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Homme, James wrote:
> Hi,
> Can someone with not much technical knowledge get this going independently?
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810
> Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
> <image001.gif>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:56 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
> Hi,
> I use Orca every day and haven't had many speed problems with it except on
> very large web pages. Granted I don't use open office though. Could it be the
> specific diestro you are using that makes it slow? I am using Ubuntu as my
> primary os. I used to be able to say only os, but I have to keep a winxp
> installation around to update some non Linux compatable hardware. (GRRRR!) Oh
> and to play Entoombed. But for everything else, it is Linux all the way.
> Anyway, before I manage to sidetrack myself any further, I have heard of some
> istros that cause Orca to run more slowly than others. Debian is supposed to
> have the fastest Orca around. I am not really sure what the difference would
> be, seems like it should run just as fast on one as the other, but oh well,
> things never work like they are supposed to.
> Just Curious
> Storm
>
>
> --
> Follow me on Twitter:
> http://www.twitter.com/stormdragon2976
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
> What color dragon are you?
> http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/alustriel07/what-color-dragon-would-you-be/
> Install Windows Vista in under 2 minutes:
> http://is.gd/am6TD
> On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 14:20 -0400, Ken Perry wrote:
>
> I agree with you Jim I have turned off xwin totally and use my Linux box for
> development only. I am thinking of trying speak up and emacspeak again
> because they supposedly support more but when it comes to Open Office it is
> so sluggish it is sick. Not to mention I have to buy $5 to $48 in voices to
> make it something I can listen to. Even with the purchase of those voices
> though Orca is more like Snail-a since Whales are at least fast. I am
> stuck in Windows not by choice but by productivity even though my entire job
> is programming in Linux. Well not all of it I have something I am working
> on in VB but that's just a rewrite. Now a couple Sighted guys I work with
> us Linux entirely but I can't because it would be so slow its sick.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:39 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
> Hi,
> All of this messing around with stuff has turned me off, so far, to free
> software. That and the lack of good docs. I know I can jump in and code and
> document to my heart's content, but I don't want to do that. I just want to
> use it. So from my point of view, you can wine all you want about MS and
> FreedomScientific stinking, but until this stuff becomes easier to use, I
> would rather be productive than throw my computer out the window in disgust.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810
> Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, Jude
> T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:24 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
> Importance: Low
>
> There may be some scripting needed to activate java access bridge on a
> computer before it will do what it's supposed to do. I heard something
> about a few small scripts needing to be written for it with java to turn
> it on. I intend to find that documentation for my PC and see if I can
> finish getting that accessible in a little while. If I get it all
> working, maybe I'll be able to put a zip file up with the small
> additional scripts in it and explain a little about what needed doing
> and how it works. There are users on the nvda list and maybe some
> developers who got this working, so maybe the message describing the
> scripts or providing copies of them is in that list's archives.
>
>
> Rot47: <;F56]52D9:6==@?2GJ]>:=>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:50
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
> Hi,
> I tried to get that working, but failed miserably. It said that I had
> the access bridge installed and that I had the OpenOffice software
> installed, but I couldn't get JAWS to read the menus and so on. So I
> uninstalled the thing.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810
> Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:24 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
> Importance: Low
>
> Openoffice is available provided you can get java access bridge
> correctly configured for it and you haven't got software installation
> restrictions. That's had jaws accessibility for longer than it had
> linux accessibility. The openoffice.org software comes with the
> database so it'll be like getting the msoffice edition with msaccess
> included.
>
>
>
> Rot47: <;F56]52D9:6==@?2GJ]>:=>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:17
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
> Hi Chris,
> What Gnu software can I now use on Windows to replace MS Office?
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810
> Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Dunleavy
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I think the warning against server based applications should be retained
> in
> some form.
> Some time ago, on this mailing list, there was strong criticism of the
> RoboBraille service.
> The FSF has a more nuanced article about "cloud computing" at:
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
>
> --Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:17 PM
> Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have spent most of the last nine months working on NPII. I think it
> is a
> very good idea and can be managed in a way that can preserve anonymity
> while
> having some of its services running on a server. All software written by
> RTF/NPII will have a free software license (I think it will be MIT) but
> third parties, including proprietary software vendors, can use our back
> end
> to augment their products.
> >
> > The one problem with NPII is that it is a really big project and
> raising
> money to move it out of the discussion phase is an arduous process to
> say
> the least.
> >
> > As I said earlier, I'm collecting criticism and ideas for the next
> version
> of the GNU Accessibility Statement and appreciate the feedback.
> >
> > So, I think we can say that this group would prefer the server based
> applications sentence be removed. Now, what do you guys think about
> everything else in the statement?
> >
> > cdh
> > On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:05 PM, qubit wrote:
> >
> > > I didn't see much technical at that website -- just a general
> overview
> and
> > > FAQ and white paper. But it is interesting. I personally wonder if
> it
> is
> > > possible to do what they want -- I mean, leveling the playing field
> for
> > > everyone with a broad range of disabilities and still allow normal
> > > competition in the software market -- I say this because different
> persons
> > > have different and sometimes conflicting needs, which would require
> > > different support not just on the net infrastructure, but also in
> > > applications.
> > > But it remains to be seen how successful this strategy will be.
> > > Are you a member?
> > > --le
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Cc: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:18 PM
> > > Subject: Re: GNU Accessibility Statement Online
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree that there are legitimate privacy concerns that one should
> > > address when using web-based applications. I also agree that, other
> > > things being equal, it is better to get a computing job done
> locally,
> > > without needing an Internet connection.
> > >
> > > I also think that cloud computing offers much potential for people
> with
> > > disabilities if managed well. A coalition of individuals and
> > > organizations in the accessibility field believes this to be the
> case,
> > > and has proposed a "National Public Inclusive Infrastructure"
> described
> > > at the web site
> > > http://npii.org/
> > >
> > > Jamal
> > >
> > > __________
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> > >
> > > __________
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> > >
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient,
> you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without
> the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail
> message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its
> subsidiaries, or affiliates.
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
Other related posts:
