So those encoders and bitstreams cause decoders to blow up? -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Workman (WINDOWS MEDIA) Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:57 AM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Interlace Artifacts >>I read somewhere once on the MSFT site that they encode in=20 >>4:1:1 when you say you want to keep interlace. Dunno if=20 that is >>still true. No. The original interlace mode encoding of Windows Media 9 "Main Profile" was 4:1:1 but this has been superseded by the interlace mode in "Advanced Profile", which is 4:2:0. The 4:1:1 mode is not supported any longer. David Workman QA Manager Core Media Processing Technology Microsoft Corporation -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom Barry Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:23 AM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Interlace Artifacts Ron Economos wrote: >As an old MPEG-2 guy, I haven't quite wrapped my head around >H.264 yet. Can you describe how the H.264 interlace tools have >improved >over MPEG-2? I've also been told that the interlace >tools in VC-1 are a complete afterthought. I read somewhere once on the MSFT site that they encode in 4:1:1 when=20 you say you want to keep interlace. Dunno if that is still true. - Tom > Comments in-line. >=20 > Tom McMahon wrote: >=20 >=20 >>This discussion treads on the usual apples and oranges problem. How do you comnpare these things when the parameters associated >>with the acquisition devices, the encoders, the storage media, the transmission media, the decoders and the display devices are all >>different? >>=20 >> >=20 > Agree that it's very much apples and oranges. I guess the reason I >responded was that most FOX 480p video bitstreams I've analyzed (when >they were doing 480p) were coded at around 10 Mbps. Quite a bit higher >than your typical 480i bitstream. >=20 >=20 >>A key concept in this is whether or not the original image was captured coherently as single sample point. In other words, whether >>or not it was "sampled" as a two dimensional array of image values or whether it was scanned out as a sequence of intensity values. >>=20 >> >=20 > To use a Tom Barry phrase, I couldn't parse that sentence. Can you give > me another clue as to what you were getting at? >=20 >=20 >>Interlace has many dimensions. (Most of them bad.) =20 >> >=20 > I get the feeling that folks on this list consider the interlace tools > in MPEG-2 > (field DCT, field predictions, alternate scan) to be not adequate. >In=20 another post you said: >=20 > It is interesting to note that H.264/AVC has much improved interlace >tools that help mitigate the gas-guzzling problem, but improved codec >performance for the transmission channel does nothing for the display >problem. >=20 > As an old MPEG-2 guy, I haven't quite wrapped my head around > H.264 yet. Can you describe how the H.264 interlace tools have >improved over MPEG-2? I've also been told that the interlace tools in >VC-1 are a complete afterthought. >=20 > Ron >=20 >=20 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Craig Birkmaier >>Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:51 PM >>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Interlace Artifacts >> >>At 3:12 PM -0800 1/11/05, Ron Economos wrote: >>=20 >> >> >>>480p@60 uses the same bitrate or less as 480i@30? That would be a very=20 >>>magical MPEG-2 encoder. >>> >>>Ron >>> =20 >>> >> >>I can point you to many tests done in the '90s that proved this exactly. But there is one caveat. Most of the tests used source with >>equal information content then measured the SNR at the output of the decoder. Thus, comparing an SDTV source with the same source >>deinterlaced and coded as 480P the 480P signal would have a higher SNR than the 480i encoding. >> >>As a 480P signal can carry more information, it is possible that you may need more bits to encode the source with the same SNR as >>the information content increases. I beleive that NHK was covering live sports in Japan with native 480P cameras with an emission >>encoded bitrate of about 8 Mbps. This compares with about 6-8 Mbps for 480i source, but the 480P was of significantly higher >>quality. >> >>Regards >>Craig >>=20 >> >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: >=20 > - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org=20 >=20 > - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. >=20 >=20 =20 =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org=20 - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.