[opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)
- From: Craig Birkmaier <brewmastercraig@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:46:38 -0500
I tried to end the thread, but Bert left me no choice but to correct some of
his absurd claims.
On Nov 17, 2016, at 9:52 PM, Manfredi, Albert E
<albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I repeat: broadcasters do not design the TV sets. At best, if broadcasters
were to change their transmission standards, they can hand out freebie STBs
or sticks for TV viewers. That's it, Craig. Did you not know this?
Broadcasters DID NOT design the ATSC 1.0 standard - a consortium of CE
companies created, tested, and paid for the standard. Much the same is
happening with ATSC 3.0.
Everything broadcasters need to move to h.264 compression, while retaining ATSC
1.0 modulation and transport, is already included in most new TVs. The
connected TV boxes have what is needed for TVs that do not include h.264
decoders. It would be trivially simple for broadcasters and the CE companies to
support h.264 streams.
But that is not what is happening. The CE industry is once again creating a new
broadcast standard that will obsolete all those TVs with mandated ATSC 1.0
receivers.
The only difference this time around is that it is unlikely the FCC will
mandate ATSC 3.0 receivers in new TVs.
Fortunately that is not a problem. It is now trivially easy to build external
boxes or dongles to support any new standards; we simply need to think of the
TV as a display with a protected bus (HDMI) to connect receivers as they
evolve.
Craig wrote:
So a viewer can spend about $100 to pull 4K streams from the Internet,
which can feed legacy HD sets and new 4K sets. Do you see the
absurdity of your argument?
All I see is complete cluelessness. Think about the role of CDNs, Craig.
Think about how unicast permits each individual set to be accommodated. If
your unicast session is with a legacy set, the server won't push the 4K
stream out to you. Just like my ADSL link won't allow my session with the
server to be HD. ED or SD are streamed.
What have CDNs got to do with this Bert. The fact is that several services are
offering 4K streams via the Internet, that can be decoded and presented on
existing HDTVs with a box or dongle that costs less than $100.
You are wrong about accessing the 4K streams. The device decoding the 4K stream
negotiates with the server for the stream, NOT the TV set.
H.265 is not here yet in any meaningful way.
As was also not H.264. And your point is?
Meaning that moving the ATSC 3.0 requires a lot of new infrastructure. You need
new or updated transmitters, encoders and possibly new production equipment at
the stations. And you need new receivers, WHEN the transmission infrastructure
is in place.
From the time the ATSC standard was mandated in 1995, to the point where ATSC
1.0 broadcasts were available in every TV market took a decade, and several
more years before the analog transmitters were turned off. Broadcasters don't
have a decade to catch up, IF you are correct that the Internet will replace
legacy systems including broadcast, cable and DBS.
On the other hand, after the auction and re-packing of of the spectrum, each
market could come up with a "simulcast" transition plan that could allow an
almost immediate deployment with h.264, or a somewhat longer transition to ATSC
3.0 with h.265. You simply deliver a SD quality version of every remaining
station in the market using ATSC 1.0 (about 2 Mbps per stream), and create
additional HD multiplexes using the new standard or h.264.
Bottom line: broadcasters need a plan. The CE vendors and new competitors like
Amazon, Apple, Roku and Google will supply the devices if broadcasters have a
viable strategy.
TV sets are very upgradable.
Sure, you buy a new set.
Don't have to unless you want more advanced features like 4K, HDR and WCG.
You don't need a new TV to watch Netflix. If you want the full Monty, you can
buy a new 4K TV.
Stop the bullshit Bert. We're asking about displays, not cameras.
Speaking of BS, you also got that wrong. Neither the camera, nor the
smartphone display, or tablet display, are HDR. No amount of weaseling from
you will change this fact.
Wrong on all accounts. The camera DOES acquire HDR images using the multiple
exposure/image processing technique. And the new displays DO deliver enhanced
dynamic range under appropriate viewing conditions. And now a growing number of
devices support WCG as well.
What you think is HDR is instead nonsensical marketing hype. The products you
mentioned were smartphones an tablets. Give it up, will you?
Correct: Smartphones and tablets that have improved displays that support HDR
and WCG, and processors that can deliver up to 16 bits per sample.
You really need to look more closely at the specs for these new displays before
making an ass out of yourself...
Maybe this will be less threatening to you. Apple is moving out of the stand
alone display business. When the new MacBook Pros were announced they were
shown driving multiple external LG Ultrafine 5K displays. These displays
support 10 bit samples and the Cinema P3 color gamut. They offer 500 cd/m2
brightness.
These are in every sense HDR displays, as are the displays on the 9.7" iPad Pro
and the new iPhone 7's, which offer slightly better brightness and higher
contrast ratio.
Again, you are merely falling into marketing hype again, not getting the
whole story. I already explained it to you. Increasing audio quality beyond a
certain point provides diminishing returns.
WOW!!!!
Bert FINALLY gets it.
So-called high res audio, if the marketers define this as only 192
Ksamples/sec and 24 bits per sample, did not essentially fail because people
don't care about audio quality, Craig. It failed because it's virtually
impossible to tell the difference from CD quality, on REALLY EXCELLENT SOUND
SYSTEMS. "High res audio" is marketing hype to describe the medium, such as
DVD-A. Read this article to understand reality:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/21/mp3-cd-24-bit-audio-music-hi-res
I already explained all of this Bert. Two Words:
DIMINISHING RETURNS
Instead, 4K sets are a totally different matter. They are appearing in great
numbers, at cheap prices. Let me put it this way. **If** high res audio were
easily available, at prices no different from regular CDs (assuming people
still bought CDs of course), why in the world would anyone avoid it?
This is no different than high resolution audio Bert.
DIMINISHING RETURNS
However, as I have explained several times, manufacturing technology is helping
to drive the shift to 4K, ALONG WITH non-TV applications that can take
advantage of higher pixel densities.
There is no compelling reason to move to 4K for TV entertainment as an emission
format - there are many good reasons to move to 4K image acquisition and post
production that can be summed up in one word:
OVERSAMPLING
If we are to be concerned about improving delivered image quality, the focus
moving forward must be on higher quality samples: improved bit depth (10-12
bits); improved display brightness and contrast ratio; improved display color
gamut.
NONE of these critical attributes have a thing to do with pixel density. All
are important for displays of ANY resolution.
END OF STORY.
Regards
Craig
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- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Craig Birkmaier
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Manfredi, Albert E
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Craig Birkmaier
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Manfredi, Albert E
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Craig Birkmaier
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Manfredi, Albert E
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