[opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)
- From: Craig Birkmaier <brewmastercraig@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:57:21 -0500
On Nov 13, 2016, at 8:24 PM, Manfredi, Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Yeah right. So, you see lots of 480p TV sets on store shelves, Craig?
No. that was never the point. The point was that 480/576P formats deliver most
of the benefits of HDTV on smaller screens. That is why so much of the
streaming video you rave about is 480P (or less).
At the time you refer to we did not have cheap LCD TVs. The first generation of
"HDTV sets" were primarily big heavy CRTs, or analog projection displays like
my first HDTV. These sets supported 1080i, but there was virtually no HD
content in the early years. 480P was the closet you could get to real HDTV;
the PRIMARY source of content for these early sets was DVD. Technically it was
480i, but DVDs could output movies optimized for 480@24P. There were no OTA or
cable sources for HDTV here in Gainesville until 2002.
You see lots of SD newscasts from TV stations? You see lots of new TV sets
with 4.3 or other non-16:9 aspect ratios? Uuuh, nope.
First, 480P is not SD; SD is 480i. 480P is EDTV.
Other than in Japan (NTV), 480P never took off as an acquisition/emission
format. But it is commonplace today, downconverted from HD sources. As you have
acknowledged, you typically are watching 480P on your PC driven TV, since you
do not have sufficient broadband bandwidth to stream HD.
The there is the question of horizontal resolution with 480P. The ATSC standard
only allows 640 x 480 (4:3 aspect ratio), as 853 x 480 @ 60P exceeds the pixel
rate for MPEG-2 MP@ML, and the ATSC DID NOT WANT a format that looked almost as
good as 1080i in those days.
Today almost everything we see from the Internet uses square pixel progressive
scan formats because of the improved compression efficiency. In some cases we
still see the use of reduced horizontal resolution formats as allowed by MPEG-2
and h.264.
As far as aspect ratios, they are all over spectrum, especially with Internet
streaming, and increasingly on broadcast news, where video captured by
smartphones is increasingly important. These smartphone videos are often shot
in portrait mode, i.e. 16 tall and 9 wide. Hollywood has largely avoided the
use of 16:9, typically releasing content in aspect ratios of 2:1 or wider.
But 16:9 displays are a decent compromise to support the wide range of aspect
ratios in use today, and broadcasters are in no rush to upgrade beyond HDTV as
defined in Table 3 of the ATSC 1.0 standard.
The point is simple. 3DTV required annoying behaviors of the TV viewer, such
as having to wear glasses and sitting in restrictive sweet spots. Instead,
both HDTV and UHDTV require nothing different from what users did with fuzzy
old squarish analog TVs.
You are correct about 3D. But you (mostly) ignore the reality that there is
little if any benefit in buying. 4K TV today. The Wired article you posted lays
out the story, as I have already done. The conclusion:
Sounds Messy. Should I Wait?
Yeah, probably.
Until all the pieces are in place with HDR and WCG, and more 4K content becomes
available, buying a 4K TV today is a waste of time and money.
And then there's the reality that 1080P TVs with HDR and WCG will look just as
good as 2160p (4K UHD) in the vast majority of homes due to viewing limitations:
- screen size
- viewing distance
- ambient light
All of the burden is on the TV set. It is irrelevant whether the viewer is
sitting at an "optimal" distance to enjoy the full advantage of HD, or
whether a newscast "deserves" to be in HD. These points could not matter
less. The TV set works just fine, even if you're sitting too far from it to
enjoy the full benefit of HD. And newscasts in HD look way better than they
did in SD, even if "they don't need to."
Yup. Including all the effects they use to fill the 16:9 aspect ratio with
narrower sources including 4:3 (ED and SD formats), 9:16 smartphone video, etc.
what is more significant is that most newscasts still protect the 4:3 safe area
for the SDTV feeds. Fortunately, most broadcasters are moving to 16:9 letterbox
for the legacy 4:3 analog feeds, and cable systems are finally killing the 4:3
analog tiers.
There are no downsides, in other words. Just like HDTV. You continue to
obsess about what the benefit is. The benefit, if absolutely nothing else, is
a wider color gamut and a really smooth image, even up close. That's the
upside. The downside? None anymore.
There are no downsides to higher quality audio formats and devices. But hardly
anyone is buying them.
The upside is using the TV display for other applications than watching sports
and entertainment. 4K is a real benefit for the non-Nyquist filtered imagery
used by the Internet.
Look at the subject line, Craig. The article is about HDR. You felt obliged
to mention that iPhones do HDR, and that all displays should be HDR. And I
said no. Not only do iPhones NOT do HDR, but all displays CANNOT be HDR.
Fortunately, we're past that now.
Wrong.
Someday it is very likely that all displays will be HDR and WCG Bert. The
iPhone 7 display is today., along with the 9.7" iPad Pro and new MacBook Pros.
Remember B&W TV? We moved on to color.
Remember NTSC? We moved on to ATSC.
Remember EGA? We moved on to VGA.
The major limitation is the huge installed base of 8 bit per pixel TV systems.
As we move to 10 bit, 12 bit and beyond, all displays will need to improve.
Regards
Craig
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- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast) - Craig Birkmaier
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- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Manfredi, Albert E
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Craig Birkmaier
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Manfredi, Albert E
- » [opendtv] Re: Google: Upload High Dynamic Range (HDR) videos (also streaming with Chromecast)- Craig Birkmaier
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