Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
- From: Steve Matzura <number6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 20:27:19 -0400
Wonder how accessible these will be.
On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:57:57 -0400, you wrote:
>I think the s750 will be around $1200 and the s950 is around $1900 but
>don't quote me on it.
>
>They are apparently coming out now. One of the dealers on Synthzone
>has received an s750 just this week.
>
>On 9/22/12, D!J!X! <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> O nice! The 950? Any idea how much that'll be? I imagine the 1g price range
>> that the upper mid range psr's have?
>> Thanks for the info, looks like a few google moments are in store for when
>> I
>> get free time.
>>
>> THX, D!J!X!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 1:05 PM
>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>
>> DJX ,
>> Wait a few months. The new PSR S750 and S950 are just now coming out.
>>
>> For the Music Finder Viewer he used Quick Basic. He did some accessibility
>> fixes on that product but I didn't work with him on the main screen where
>> the lists of entries are. Have to Jaws cursor around on that one. Still
>> needs a lot of work but it was helpful. I never tried any other software
>> by
>> him. Anyway, I don't have the need since I don't have a board which is
>> addressed in his software.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:28 AM
>> To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>
>>> Wow, Michael is still around! That's cool... Haven't spoken to him in
>>> years.
>>> Glad to hear he's still actively developing software for the
>>> pssr/tyros line. When I get a s910 or whatever is out now I'll have to
>> hunt him down.
>>> Vince, has he been able to get accessibility into his tools?
>>> Back in the day we were working with java and some other sdk's that
>>> made it a task to get things working, not to mention jaws was behind
>>> the times (the days of 4.1/4.2).
>>>
>>> D!J!X!
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 6:46 AM
>>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>
>>>
>>> All of that is only accessed through Sysex controls. If you remember,
>>> back a few years ago on the T3 forum we had Michael Bedison who is one
>>> of the biggest contributers on PSRTutorials come on and answer many
>>> questions. I had asked him if he could modify his Music Finder View
>>> application to take that information from a selected song entry and
>>> send it to the T3. After a few months of testing it was done. He
>>> said he had wanted to do it and was getting held up with some area but
>>> found that those areas - tempo especially was changed via PCCC00,c32
>>> and PC controls. The styles, variations, intros and all that other
>>> good stuff was only addressable through Sysex.
>>>
>>> The feature is still available in the program to this date. There is
>>> no documentation on this in any of the manuals for either the Tyros
>>> line or PSR line. I'm thinking he was able to capture this info
>>> through his MIDI out.
>>> All the messages are standard over both series; just the id for the
>>> board and model is different.
>>>
>>> I sold my T3 off about two months ago.
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Steve Matzura" <number6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 11:13 PM
>>> To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>
>>>> My big complaint about the Tyros, and, I suspect, any arranger, is
>>>> the lack of addressability via MIDI of certain features. I owned a T3
>>>> for about a year, and for the life of me, I could never figure out
>>>> how to select styles or fills or breaks via MIDI. My goal in
>>>> purchasing the thing was to do all that setup stuff with Sonar,
>>>> record a song's backing track, then play over it with both hands. Ha,
>>>> I remember as a kid I had this chord organ, and the first thing I
>>>> learned to do with it was disable the chord functions so I could have
>>>> a fuller keyboard and play my own chords! But what the Tyros offered
>>>> in the way of arranger tools was so good, it drew me in, only to spit
>>>> me out again when I found out I couldn't fire them via MIDI. If that
>>>> capability exists there, I'd sure love to know how it's supposed to be
>> done.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 23:43:55 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Bryan,
>>>>>
>>>>>What a great explanation.
>>>>>
>>>>>So I had always figured my Tyros was a good choice for the realistic
>>>>>instruments. And when I wanted to compose a song with multiple
>>>>>tracks, instruments, and effects, then I figured Sonar was my friend.
>>>>>
>>>>>However, I now appreciate the headwind in getting a DAW with Sonar
>>>>>and all the supporting peripherals and wiring working.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just understanding tracks, channels, busses, banks, patches, sends,
>>>>>all that termonology and the routing is enough to drive any newcomer
>>>>>crazy.
>>>>>
>>>>>I can appreciate that it's all pre-packaged in the Motif. But still,
>>>>>Motif doesn't talk, so perhaps the memorization necessary to master
>>>>>Motif's workstation features is roughly equivalent to mastering
>>>>>playing Tyros + Sonar + Cake Talking.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now if Motif talked, or we could link up Motif screens to an OCR
>>>>>engine and have them spoken, that would be the ultimate, wouldn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks again for your detailed explanation,
>>>>>
>>>>>Ben
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 08:31 PM 7/7/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>OK. This can get complicated, but here is the nut shell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>An arranger keyboard solves a problem for a few types of musicians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you gig by yourself, you have a virtual backup band that can play
>>>>>>along with you. You select a musical style on the arranger, play the
>>>>>>main keyboard part, and the band follows along. The instrument
>>>>>>sounds on a good arranger keyboard are going to sound way better
>>>>>>than some cheap general MIDI module or canned backing tracks. The
>>>>>>keyboard also reacts to you, so if you stretch out with additional
>>>>>>choruses, or if you want to throw in a break or solo, you can do that
>>>>>> in
>> the moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The other big problem arrangers solve is they help someone that
>>>>>>doesn't know how to play keyboard sound like a full band. I don't
>>>>>>mean that the musician can't play keys, but playing keyboard is
>>>>>>different from playing piano. Keyboard players learn how to spread
>>>>>>out with wide two-handed chords to play more realistic guitar parts,
>>>>>>how to play the correct intervals for instruments like harmonica,
>>>>>>etc. If you play piano well, but don't know how to change your
>>>>>>technique for those other instruments, then an arranger helps you.
>>>>>>You basically play in the piano part, or else record in a few tracks
>>>>>>that serve as guides, pick a style, and the arranger plays all of
>>>>>>the other instruments for you. You can write this way, but you focus
>>>>>>on the chords and melody, rather than playing each part. The styles
>>>>>>are also useful for letting you hear how your chord progression and
>>>>>>melody will sound when performed different ways. You focus on the
>>>>>>big picture, and let the arranger worry about the details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A workstation keyboard is meant to be a self-contained instrument
>>>>>>for composition/production of an entire song. It is supposed to be
>>>>>>something like a scaled down studio or DAW. Motif has lots of
>>>>>>ready-to-go instrument sounds, both a 16 track linear (tape recorder
>>>>>>style), and a 16 track pattern (drum machine style) sequencer, a
>>>>>>sampler that can be used to import loops, make new instruments,
>>>>>>record vocals, etc, and, finally, Motif has a mixing/mastering
>>>>>>system for getting the sound right. You might have a megabucks
>>>>>>computer with a mountain of softsynths, but a workstation is a
>>>>>>boiled down version of that for getting the tech out of your way so
>>>>>>you can write. You turn on the Motif, and it is all there: no
>>>>>>updates, drivers, viruses, etc. You perform your parts in to the
>>>>>>sequencer on the Motif, mix it on the Motif, and can record your file
>> directly to a USB flash drive.
>>>>>>The idea is that you sit down, turn on the Motif, quickly play in
>>>>>>your idea, quickly mix it, and get up with a recorded song. The
>>>>>>computer has more synths, more and better effects, etc etc. If you
>>>>>>want to demo a song idea, though, you can throw something together
>>>>>>in a short time on the Motif that sounds good, rather than spend
>>>>>>hours working through the infinite possibilities on the computer. If
>>>>>>you end up loving your demo, you can jump on the computer with a
>>>>>>better idea of where you're going.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A workstation is also different from an arranger in that it lets you
>>>>>>control just about everything. You can record and edit on all 16
>>>>>>tracks, instead of a few on an arranger. You have more performance
>>>>>>controls that affect the tone of the instrument voice, where an
>>>>>>arranger has mostly performance controls that affect the virtual
>>>>>>band. You can also tweak the sound of any of your instruments:
>>>>>>change the effects, edit the filters, envelopes, LFOs and other mod
>>>>>>sources, all the way down to the individual samples, where an
>>>>>>arranger doesn't go as deep with control of the instrument sounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Arps or arpeggios get their name from history. On an instrument, you
>>>>>>play an arpeggio by playing the notes of a chord individually in a
>>>>>>pattern. In the ancient days, synthesizers had devices called
>>>>>>arpeggiators that did this for you. You'd hold down a C major chord,
>>>>>>and they'd play c, e, g, e, c, e, g, etc. You could change the
>>>>>>pattern, so they'd play c, e, g, c, e, g, or g, e, c, g, e, c, but
>>>>>>that was about it. On the Motif, an arpeggio is a bit like that in
>>>>>>the sense that you can play a chord, but what comes out is a
>>>>>>realistic sounding riff. For example, say you don't know how to play
>>>>>>good guitar parts. You can pick a guitar sound for a track, select
>>>>>>one of the guitar arpeggios, and just play the chords. The Motif
>>>>>>will generate notes that sound like you're strumming, muting,
>>>>>>tapping the guitar body for rhythm, etc. The arps on the Motif
>>>>>>aren't as smart as the styles on the Tyros, but they try to help in
>>>>>>the same way. You can also play them in to the sequencer one at a
>>>>>>time, which gives you more control than you get on a Tyros. The
>>>>>>Motif has a performance mode, where you can use up to 4 parts at
>>>>>>once under arpeggiator control. People commonly make performances
>>>>>>that include drums, bass, guitar, and keys. The result is something
>>>>>>that sounds similar to a Tyros style, but with fewer parts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can always hammer in a nail with a screw driver, but it isn't
>>>>>>necessarily easy. That's why it's better to get the keyboard that is
>>>>>>laid out to best handle the problems that you encounter the most in
>>>>>>your work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bryan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Ben Humphreys wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks Bryan, I liked your summary: "The Tyros is a great arranger
>>>>>>>with some workstation features. The Motif is a great workstation
>>>>>>>with some arranger features."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Unfortunately, I don't yet have a grasp for what "arranger" and
>>>>>>>"workstation" mean specifically. However, an example might help
>>>>>>>clarify the situation for me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let's say I have a 4-handed piano piece, such as "Heart and Soul."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I want to make a first pass with the left handed part, a repeating
>>>>>>>pattern.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Then a second pass with the right handed part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I understand how I might do this with Sonar, recording the left
>>>>>>>hands part on a track, and then looping it over and over. Then
>>>>>>>putting the right hands part on its own track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How might I accomplish this with Motif and/or Tyros?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Is this where arpeggios on Motif come in? Is this where styles on
>>>>>>>Tyros come in?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without regard to using Sonar, how would this be accomplished on
>>>>>>>a Motif vs. Tyros?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Obviously, I'm confused about a lot of terms: workstation,
>>>>>>>arranger, arpeggios, styles and how they might apply to various
>>>>>>>situations, and in particular the one I have described.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'd be grateful to anyone who can set me straight :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At 04:07 PM 7/1/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>There are a good many blind Tyros users out there. Most of these
>>>>>>>>people are using the Tyros for doing one-man shows: weddings,
>>>>>>>>small parties, etc. It is incredibly realistic at being a backing
>>>>>>>>band while you play. The styles, harmonizer, and so forth aren't
>>>>>>>>really useful if you're playing with a full band. Ensemble
>>>>>>>>keyboard players would do better with a workstation, where they
>>>>>>>>can split/layer voices as much as they want, as well as build
>>>>>>>>their own from scratch. I know a few blind people that have the
>>>>>>>>Tyros as a studio sound module, but is very expensive for that
>> approach.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The Tyros is a great arranger with some workstation features. The
>>>>>>>>Motif is a great workstation with some arranger features. My
>>>>>>>>personal opinion is that the Tyros is the superior live keyboard,
>>>>>>>>and the Motif is the superior studio piece, but they both can do
>>>>>>>>either things to some degree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Anyway, there isn't a blind Tyros users list, as far as I know,
>>>>>>>>but lots of them are on MIDI-Mag. At one point, there were panel
>>>>>>>>descriptions, menu descriptions, and so on floating around for at
>>>>>>>>least the Tyros 3.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I suggest to ask on MIDI-Mag. Go to
>>>>>>>><<http://www.midimag.org>http://www.midimag.org>www.midimag.org.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Bryan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Jun 29, 2012, at 4:51 PM, D!J!X! wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The motif is different in the layout and navigation than the
>>>>>>>>>tyros and the top line psr. The tyros and psr are aranger
>>>>>>>>>keyboards, with the styles and are geared more toward quick
>>>>>>>>>composition and perfomance like that. You can use it with a
>>>>>>>>>sequencer with no problem, and for quick recordings. Not sure
>>>>>>>>>what it has in terms of sampling capabilities, but the motif is
>>>>>>>>>more of a workstation, you can make more customized full songs on
>>>>>>>>>there, they have pattern mode for quick loop based music
>>>>>>>>>creation, and it's more of an overall perfoming workstation, with
>>>>>>>>>separate channels and assignable parts and such for performing,
>>>>>>>>>the tyros and psr just have the main voice, 1 or 2 layers that
>>>>>>>>>you can add, and a left hand split along with the styles.
>>>>>>>>>The motif for example can have 4 separate keyboard zones or 4
>>>>>>>>>layers (probably more in the xf and xs), you can use arps with
>>>>>>>>>the voices (short musical loops), and you can even use the
>>>>>>>>>pattern mode to create a 16 track part or such to use in
>>>>>>>>>performances. It also has many more effects than the tyros and
>>>>>>>>>more advanced routing, as it's meant for the studio musician and
>>>>>>>>>the live gigging musician as well.
>>>>>>>>>But if you're using the tyros in studio or for small
>>>>>>>>>performances, the tyros should be fine, though because of it's
>>>>>>>>>different layout and such it'll be harder to get help, since most
>>>>>>>>>people on this list at least use the motif line. The good thing
>>>>>>>>>about the tyros and psr navigation system is that it stays
>>>>>>>>>constant and once you learn it you can get around most of those
>> keyboards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>HTH, D!J!X!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>From:
>>>>>>>>><<mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:moaccess-bounce@fre
>>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>>lists.org><mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>moaccess-bounce@f
>>>>>>>>>r
>>>>>>>>>eelists.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>[mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Ben Humphreys
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>To:
>>>>>>>>><<mailto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx><ma
>>>>>>>>>i lto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>Subject: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I have a question relating to accessability of the Motif vs the
>>>>>>>>>Tyros.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I've heard it consistently stated that Motif is one of the best
>>>>>>>>>workstations for a blind musician, presumably because so many
>>>>>>>>>functions are accessible from dedicated buttons and the screen
>>>>>>>>>interface is button-based, not touch-based.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>However, when I went to purchase a Motif, I was so enamored with
>>>>>>>>>the even more beautiful sounds of the Tyros that I ended up
>>>>>>>>>getting a Tyros 4 instead.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I figured the Yamaha Tyros interface was similar enough to Motif
>>>>>>>>>that I wouldn't be at any disadvantage to a Motif user. Tyros
>>>>>>>>>has lots of buttons I can label in Braille, and screen has 10
>>>>>>>>>buttons, A through J, tab keys, and 1 through 8 up / down
>>>>>>>>>buttons. I'm assuming Motif is very similar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Of course, there is no ty-access mailing list, and certain apps,
>>>>>>>>>such as those from John Melas, won't work with Tyros.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But I'm using Sonar with Cake Talking, same as I would with Motif.
>>>>>>>>>And I've found a Tyros 4 Instrument Definition File so presumably
>>>>>>>>>can select instruments easily using Sonar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Which leads to my question:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Is the Motif preferred among the blind community over the Tyros
>>>>>>>>>primarily because the Motif is somehow more accessable? Or is it
>>>>>>>>>perhaps that the Tyros is a bit on the expensive side?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Is there some compelling reason I'd want to sell my Tyros and get
>>>>>>>>>a Motif instead?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks for your help,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>ist/moaccess
>>>>>>>
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>
>
>--
>Vince Mistretta
>Call me at 561-234-7631
>Skype Name: vin5451
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