Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example

There was a *huge* discussion about this very topic on another
instrument-related email list. We virtually all concluded that it's
more like keeping up with the Joneses and what stuff looks like
matters more. Too bad. Some really plain-looking gear makes some
incredible music. And of course, the plainer for us, the better!

On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:25:21 -0400, you wrote:

>You know I wonder if the new motif lines will even change; from what I've
>heard, lots of people are starting to kick up complaints about yamaha's GUIS
>looking old-school or outdated or clunky etc.
>I thought we were all about effeciency on gigs, not who has the best looking
>synth screen lol.
>
>Regards,D!J!X!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 10:11 PM
>To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>
>From what I hear nothing changed.  I am hearing that Tyros may be changing
>this go round though.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:37 PM
>To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>
>> I hope they keep the psr interface, like the PSR2000, tyros and such. 
>> I saw the psr s900 at guitar center and saw it was still using the 
>> same method, a-j and page up/down buttons, so hope they keep that lol.
>>
>> D!J!X!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Steve Matzura
>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:27 PM
>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>
>> Wonder how accessible these will be.
>>
>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:57:57 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I think the s750 will be around $1200 and the s950 is around $1900 but 
>>>don't quote me on it.
>>>
>>>They are apparently coming out now.  One of the dealers on Synthzone 
>>>has received an s750 just this week.
>>>
>>>On 9/22/12, D!J!X! <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> O nice! The 950? Any idea how much that'll be? I imagine the 1g 
>>>> price range that the upper mid range psr's have?
>>>> Thanks for the info, looks like a few google moments are in store 
>>>> for when I get free time.
>>>>
>>>> THX, D!J!X!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 1:05 PM
>>>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>>
>>>> DJX   ,
>>>> Wait a few months.  The new PSR S750 and S950 are just now coming out.
>>>>
>>>> For the Music Finder Viewer he used Quick Basic.  He did some 
>>>> accessibility fixes on that product but I didn't work with him on 
>>>> the main screen where the lists of entries are.  Have to Jaws cursor 
>>>> around on that one.  Still needs a lot of work but it was helpful.  
>>>> I never tried any other software by him.  Anyway, I don't have the 
>>>> need since I don't have a board which is addressed in his software.
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:28 AM
>>>> To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, Michael is still around! That's cool... Haven't spoken to him 
>>>>> in years.
>>>>> Glad to hear he's still actively developing software for the 
>>>>> pssr/tyros line. When I get a s910 or whatever is out now I'll have 
>>>>> to
>>>> hunt him down.
>>>>> Vince, has he been able to get accessibility into his tools?
>>>>> Back in the day we were working with java and some other sdk's that 
>>>>> made it a task to get things working, not to mention jaws was 
>>>>> behind the times (the days of 4.1/4.2).
>>>>>
>>>>> D!J!X!
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>>>> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 6:46 AM
>>>>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All of that is only accessed through Sysex controls.  If you 
>>>>> remember, back a few years ago on the T3 forum we had Michael 
>>>>> Bedison who is one of the biggest contributers on PSRTutorials come 
>>>>> on and answer many questions.  I had asked him if he could modify 
>>>>> his Music Finder View application to take that information from a 
>>>>> selected song entry and send it to the T3.  After a few months of 
>>>>> testing it was done.  He said he had wanted to do it and was 
>>>>> getting held up with some area but found that those areas - tempo 
>>>>> especially was changed via PCCC00,c32 and PC controls.  The styles, 
>>>>> variations, intros and all that other good stuff was only 
>>>>> addressable through Sysex.
>>>>>
>>>>> The feature is still available in the program to this date.  There 
>>>>> is no documentation on this in any of the manuals for either the 
>>>>> Tyros line or PSR line.  I'm thinking he was able to capture this 
>>>>> info through his MIDI out.
>>>>> All the messages are standard over both series; just the  id for 
>>>>> the board and model is different.
>>>>>
>>>>> I sold my T3 off about two months ago.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Steve Matzura" <number6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 11:13 PM
>>>>> To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>>>
>>>>>> My big complaint about the Tyros, and, I suspect, any arranger, is 
>>>>>> the lack of addressability via MIDI of certain features. I owned a
>>>>>> T3 for about a year, and for the life of me, I could never figure 
>>>>>> out how to select styles or fills or breaks via MIDI. My goal in 
>>>>>> purchasing the thing was to do all that setup stuff with Sonar, 
>>>>>> record a song's backing track, then play over it with both hands.
>>>>>> Ha, I remember as a kid I had this chord organ, and the first 
>>>>>> thing I learned to do with it was disable the chord functions so I 
>>>>>> could have a fuller keyboard and play my own chords! But what the 
>>>>>> Tyros offered in the way of arranger tools was so good, it drew me 
>>>>>> in, only to spit me out again when I found out I couldn't fire 
>>>>>> them via MIDI. If that capability exists there, I'd sure love to 
>>>>>> know how it's supposed to be
>>>> done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 23:43:55 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bryan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What a great explanation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So I had always figured my Tyros was a good choice for the 
>>>>>>>realistic instruments.  And when I wanted to compose a song with 
>>>>>>>multiple tracks, instruments, and effects, then I figured Sonar 
>>>>>>>was my
>> friend.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>However, I now appreciate the headwind in getting a DAW with Sonar 
>>>>>>>and all the supporting peripherals and wiring working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Just understanding tracks, channels, busses, banks, patches, 
>>>>>>>sends, all that termonology and the routing is enough to drive any 
>>>>>>>newcomer crazy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I can appreciate that it's all pre-packaged in the Motif.  But 
>>>>>>>still, Motif doesn't talk, so perhaps the memorization necessary 
>>>>>>>to master Motif's workstation features is roughly equivalent to 
>>>>>>>mastering playing Tyros + Sonar + Cake Talking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now if Motif talked, or we could link up Motif screens to an OCR 
>>>>>>>engine and have them spoken, that would be the ultimate, wouldn't it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks again for your detailed explanation,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At 08:31 PM 7/7/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>OK. This can get complicated, but here is the nut shell.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>An arranger keyboard solves a problem for a few types of musicians.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If you gig by yourself, you have a virtual backup band that can 
>>>>>>>>play along with you. You select a musical style on the arranger, 
>>>>>>>>play the main keyboard part, and the band follows along. The 
>>>>>>>>instrument sounds on a good arranger keyboard are going to sound 
>>>>>>>>way better than some cheap general MIDI module or canned backing 
>>>>>>>>tracks. The keyboard also reacts to you, so if you stretch out 
>>>>>>>>with additional choruses, or if you want to throw in a break or 
>>>>>>>>solo, you can do that  in
>>>> the moment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The other big problem arrangers solve is they help someone that 
>>>>>>>>doesn't know how to play keyboard sound like a full band. I don't 
>>>>>>>>mean that the musician can't play keys, but playing keyboard is 
>>>>>>>>different from playing piano. Keyboard players learn how to 
>>>>>>>>spread out with wide two-handed chords to play more realistic 
>>>>>>>>guitar parts, how to play the correct intervals for instruments 
>>>>>>>>like harmonica, etc. If you play piano well, but don't know how 
>>>>>>>>to change your technique for those other instruments, then an 
>>>>>>>>arranger
>> helps you.
>>>>>>>>You basically play in the piano part, or else record in a few 
>>>>>>>>tracks that serve as guides, pick a style, and the arranger plays 
>>>>>>>>all of the other instruments for you. You can write this way, but 
>>>>>>>>you focus on the chords and melody, rather than playing each part.
>>>>>>>>The styles are also useful for letting you hear how your chord 
>>>>>>>>progression and melody will sound when performed different ways.
>>>>>>>>You focus on the big picture, and let the arranger worry about 
>>>>>>>>the
>> details.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A workstation keyboard is meant to be a self-contained instrument 
>>>>>>>>for composition/production of an entire song. It is supposed to 
>>>>>>>>be something like a scaled down studio or DAW. Motif has lots of 
>>>>>>>>ready-to-go instrument sounds, both a 16 track linear (tape 
>>>>>>>>recorder style), and a 16 track pattern (drum machine style) 
>>>>>>>>sequencer, a sampler that can be used to import loops, make new 
>>>>>>>>instruments, record vocals, etc, and, finally, Motif has a 
>>>>>>>>mixing/mastering system for getting the sound right. You might 
>>>>>>>>have a megabucks computer with a mountain of softsynths, but a 
>>>>>>>>workstation is a boiled down version of that for getting the tech 
>>>>>>>>out of your way so you can write. You turn on the Motif, and it 
>>>>>>>>is all there: no updates, drivers, viruses, etc. You perform your 
>>>>>>>>parts in to the sequencer on the Motif, mix it on the Motif, and 
>>>>>>>>can record your file
>>>> directly to a USB flash drive.
>>>>>>>>The idea is that you sit down, turn on the Motif, quickly play in 
>>>>>>>>your idea, quickly mix it, and get up with a recorded song. The 
>>>>>>>>computer has more synths, more and better effects, etc etc. If 
>>>>>>>>you want to demo a song idea, though, you can throw something 
>>>>>>>>together in a short time on the Motif that sounds good, rather 
>>>>>>>>than spend hours working through the infinite possibilities on the
>computer.
>>>>>>>>If you end up loving your demo, you can jump on the computer with 
>>>>>>>>a better idea of where you're going.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A workstation is also different from an arranger in that it lets 
>>>>>>>>you control just about everything. You can record and edit on all
>>>>>>>>16 tracks, instead of a few on an arranger. You have more 
>>>>>>>>performance controls that affect the tone of the instrument 
>>>>>>>>voice, where an arranger has mostly performance controls that 
>>>>>>>>affect the virtual band. You can also tweak the sound of any of 
>>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>instruments:
>>>>>>>>change the effects, edit the filters, envelopes, LFOs and other 
>>>>>>>>mod sources, all the way down to the individual samples, where an 
>>>>>>>>arranger doesn't go as deep with control of the instrument sounds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Arps or arpeggios get their name from history. On an instrument, 
>>>>>>>>you play an arpeggio by playing the notes of a chord individually 
>>>>>>>>in a pattern. In the ancient days, synthesizers had devices 
>>>>>>>>called arpeggiators that did this for you. You'd hold down a C 
>>>>>>>>major chord, and they'd play c, e, g, e, c, e, g, etc. You could 
>>>>>>>>change the pattern, so they'd play c, e, g, c, e, g, or g, e, c, 
>>>>>>>>g, e, c, but that was about it. On the Motif, an arpeggio is a 
>>>>>>>>bit like that in the sense that you can play a chord, but what 
>>>>>>>>comes out is a realistic sounding riff. For example, say you 
>>>>>>>>don't know how to play good guitar parts. You can pick a guitar 
>>>>>>>>sound for a track, select one of the guitar arpeggios, and just 
>>>>>>>>play the chords. The Motif will generate notes that sound like 
>>>>>>>>you're strumming, muting, tapping the guitar body for rhythm, 
>>>>>>>>etc. The arps on the Motif aren't as smart as the styles on the 
>>>>>>>>Tyros, but they try to help in the same way. You can also play 
>>>>>>>>them in to the sequencer one at a time, which gives you more 
>>>>>>>>control than you get on a Tyros. The Motif has a performance 
>>>>>>>>mode, where you can use up to 4 parts at once under arpeggiator 
>>>>>>>>control. People commonly make performances that include drums, 
>>>>>>>>bass, guitar, and keys. The result is something that sounds 
>>>>>>>>similar to a Tyros style, but with
>> fewer parts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You can always hammer in a nail with a screw driver, but it isn't 
>>>>>>>>necessarily easy. That's why it's better to get the keyboard that 
>>>>>>>>is laid out to best handle the problems that you encounter the 
>>>>>>>>most in your work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Bryan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Ben Humphreys wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks Bryan,  I liked your summary: "The Tyros is a great 
>>>>>>>>>arranger with some workstation features. The Motif is a great 
>>>>>>>>>workstation with some arranger features."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Unfortunately, I don't yet have a grasp for what "arranger" and 
>>>>>>>>>"workstation" mean specifically.  However, an example might help 
>>>>>>>>>clarify the situation for me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Let's say I have a 4-handed piano piece, such as "Heart and Soul."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I want to make a first pass with the left handed part, a 
>>>>>>>>>repeating pattern.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Then a second pass with the right handed part.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I understand how I might do this with Sonar, recording the left 
>>>>>>>>>hands part on a track, and then looping it over and over.  Then 
>>>>>>>>>putting the right hands part on its own track.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>How might I accomplish this with Motif and/or Tyros?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Is this where arpeggios on Motif  come in? Is this where styles 
>>>>>>>>>on Tyros come in?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Without regard to using Sonar, how would this be accomplished 
>>>>>>>>>on a Motif vs. Tyros?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Obviously, I'm confused about a lot of terms: workstation, 
>>>>>>>>>arranger, arpeggios, styles and how they might apply to various 
>>>>>>>>>situations, and in particular the one I have described.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'd be grateful to anyone who can set me straight :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>At 04:07 PM 7/1/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>There are a good many blind Tyros users out there. Most of 
>>>>>>>>>>these people are using the Tyros for doing one-man shows: 
>>>>>>>>>>weddings, small parties, etc. It is incredibly realistic at 
>>>>>>>>>>being a backing band while you play. The styles, harmonizer, 
>>>>>>>>>>and so forth aren't really useful if you're playing with a full
>band.
>>>>>>>>>>Ensemble keyboard players would do better with a workstation, 
>>>>>>>>>>where they can split/layer voices as much as they want, as well 
>>>>>>>>>>as build their own from scratch. I know a few blind people that 
>>>>>>>>>>have the Tyros as a studio sound module, but is very expensive 
>>>>>>>>>>for that
>>>> approach.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The Tyros is a great arranger with some workstation features.
>>>>>>>>>>The Motif is a great workstation with some arranger features. 
>>>>>>>>>>My personal opinion is that the Tyros is the superior live 
>>>>>>>>>>keyboard, and the Motif is the superior studio piece, but they 
>>>>>>>>>>both can do either things to some degree.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Anyway, there isn't a blind Tyros users list, as far as I know, 
>>>>>>>>>>but lots of them are on MIDI-Mag. At one point, there were 
>>>>>>>>>>panel descriptions, menu descriptions, and so on floating 
>>>>>>>>>>around for at least the Tyros 3.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I suggest to ask on MIDI-Mag. Go to 
>>>>>>>>>><<http://www.midimag.org>http://www.midimag.org>www.midimag.org.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Bryan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Jun 29, 2012, at 4:51 PM, D!J!X! wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>The motif is different in the layout and navigation than the 
>>>>>>>>>>>tyros and the top line psr.  The tyros and psr are aranger 
>>>>>>>>>>>keyboards, with the styles and are geared more toward quick 
>>>>>>>>>>>composition and perfomance like that. You can use it with a 
>>>>>>>>>>>sequencer with no problem, and for quick recordings. Not sure 
>>>>>>>>>>>what it has in terms of sampling capabilities, but the motif 
>>>>>>>>>>>is more of a workstation, you can make more customized full 
>>>>>>>>>>>songs on there, they have pattern mode for quick loop based 
>>>>>>>>>>>music creation, and it's more of an overall perfoming 
>>>>>>>>>>>workstation, with separate channels and assignable parts and 
>>>>>>>>>>>such for performing, the tyros and psr just have the main 
>>>>>>>>>>>voice, 1 or 2 layers that you can add, and a left hand split 
>>>>>>>>>>>along with the
>> styles.
>>>>>>>>>>>The motif for example can have 4 separate keyboard zones or 4 
>>>>>>>>>>>layers (probably more in the xf and xs), you can use arps with 
>>>>>>>>>>>the voices (short musical loops), and you can even use the 
>>>>>>>>>>>pattern mode to create a 16 track part or such to use in 
>>>>>>>>>>>performances. It also has many more effects than the tyros and 
>>>>>>>>>>>more advanced routing, as it's meant for the studio musician 
>>>>>>>>>>>and the live gigging musician as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>But if you're using the tyros in studio or for small 
>>>>>>>>>>>performances, the tyros should be fine, though because of it's 
>>>>>>>>>>>different layout and such it'll be harder to get help, since 
>>>>>>>>>>>most people on this list at least use the motif line. The good 
>>>>>>>>>>>thing about the tyros and psr navigation system is that it 
>>>>>>>>>>>stays constant and once you learn it you can get around most 
>>>>>>>>>>>of those
>>>> keyboards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>HTH, D!J!X!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>From:
>>>>>>>>>>><<mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:moaccess-bounce@
>>>>>>>>>>>f
>>>>>>>>>>>re
>>>>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>>>>lists.org><mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>moaccess-bounc
>>>>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>>>>@f
>>>>>>>>>>>r
>>>>>>>>>>>eelists.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>[mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Ben Humphreys
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>To:
>>>>>>>>>>><<mailto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>< ma i lto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I have a question relating to accessability of the Motif vs 
>>>>>>>>>>>the Tyros.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I've heard it consistently stated that Motif is one of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>best workstations for a blind musician, presumably because so 
>>>>>>>>>>>many functions are accessible from dedicated buttons and the 
>>>>>>>>>>>screen interface is button-based, not touch-based.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>However, when I went to purchase a Motif, I was so enamored 
>>>>>>>>>>>with the even more beautiful sounds of the Tyros that I ended 
>>>>>>>>>>>up getting a Tyros 4 instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I figured the Yamaha Tyros interface was similar enough to 
>>>>>>>>>>>Motif that I wouldn't be at any disadvantage to a Motif user.
>>>>>>>>>>>Tyros has lots of buttons I can label in Braille, and screen 
>>>>>>>>>>>has 10 buttons, A through J, tab keys, and 1 through 8 up / 
>>>>>>>>>>>down buttons.  I'm assuming Motif is very similar.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Of course, there is no ty-access mailing list, and certain 
>>>>>>>>>>>apps, such as those from John Melas, won't work with Tyros.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>But I'm using Sonar with Cake Talking, same as I would with Motif.
>>>>>>>>>>>And I've found a Tyros 4 Instrument Definition File so 
>>>>>>>>>>>presumably can select instruments easily using Sonar.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Which leads to my question:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Is the Motif preferred among the blind community over the 
>>>>>>>>>>>Tyros primarily because the Motif is somehow more accessable?  
>>>>>>>>>>>Or is it perhaps that the Tyros is a bit on the expensive side?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Is there some compelling reason I'd want to sell my Tyros and 
>>>>>>>>>>>get a Motif instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for your help,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>--
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>>>>>>>>>>>o rg / list/moaccess>http://www.freelists.org/list/moaccess
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>r
>>>>>>>>>>>g/
>>>>>>>>>>>l
>>>>>>>>>>>ist/moaccess
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
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>>>>>>>>>/
>>>>>>>>>li
>>>>>>>>>s
>>>>>>>>>t/moaccess
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Vince Mistretta
>>>Call me at 561-234-7631
>>>Skype Name: vin5451
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