[lit-ideas] Re: Where politics hits the grass
- From: "Julie Krueger" <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 08:19:42 -0600
Denying is different from acknowledging both the problems and that there are
small steps that can and are be taken towards solving them. Granted, the
steps will not solve everything. But they can make some, perhaps many,
things better. Bad stuff ain't never gonna go away no way no how. You seem
to want all or nothing -- turning your back on positive gains and steps
because they won't eradicate all wrongs is pretty self and other defeating.
You seem to suggest that I am in denial of profound problems, pain,
difficulties, and evils in human existence.
I hope that you are not in denial of the beauty and joy there is in human
existence.
Whether the joy and beauty is sufficient to justify human existence in the
face of the pain and evils is another question entirely.
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Andy <mimi.erva@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> It's like seeing into another dimension and I wish I didn't. Miss our
> discussions about pharma/Pharma/pHarma? You mean, miss denying that there's
> a problem with pharma/Pharma/pHarma? Miss denying there's a problem with
> climate change? Miss denying there's a problem with...
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 11/7/08, Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>* wrote:
>
> From: Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Where politics hits the grass
> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 6:20 AM
>
>
> What is it about human beings that causes you to care about the human race
> in general? What is it about humans that makes it difficult for you to
> "stop caring"? Do you like the idea of humanity but dislike humans in
> particular?
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Andy <mimi.erva@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Okay, name something redemptive and good that humans have come up
>> with. Absolutely everything humans have come up with is nonsense. Big
>> deal, vaccines. Humans find more creative ways to kill each other.
>>
>> And people are for the most part brainless and heartless, or why is 2/3 of
>> the world living on $2 a day in cardboard boxes while others light cigars
>> with money, and child abuse is absolutely rampant and animals are tortured
>> for food. I didn't apply the word monster, you did. All I did was describe
>> the reality.
>>
>> And if you want to do the Pollyanna thing, that's fine. Humans do like to
>> pat themselves on the back. It also doesn't compute that I should stop
>> caring. How do you propose I do that?
>>
>>
>> --- On *Fri, 11/7/08, Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>* wrote:
>>
>> From: Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Where politics hits the grass
>> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 5:51 AM
>>
>>
>> I'm a little surprised. What on earth motivates you to continue to feel
>> badly for the monsters that destroy and deplete this entirely screwed up
>> planet of ours? There are times, Irene, whether I wonder why you wouldn't
>> rather see the entire thing go up in a mushroom cloud.
>>
>> Of course, it's hard to measure reality against either Edenic idealism or
>> catastrophic nihilism.
>>
>> If people are so little worth saving, so awful, so irredeemable, why does
>> the experience and trajectory people trouble you so much?
>>
>> Either you care or you don't .... if we're monsters, you can stop being
>> upset about it. If we aren't, then we aren't.
>>
>> You seem to see things in very chiaroscuro tones. If humanity does not
>> follow the behaviours you believe best for the planet, for vegetable growth,
>> for animal life, for human children, there's no point to it.
>>
>> If humanity has areas that behave in ways you perceive as good, it's a
>> waste of effort or thought, because humanity, the planet are too far gone.
>>
>> I almost think you don't want there to be anything good or redemptive or
>> positive.... it would perhaps be an affront in some way to your basic
>> philosophy, your basic view of the world. I have known a few people for
>> whom a sense of impending doom and despair keep their lives worth living.
>> But I don't think you're one of them.
>>
>> I don't know how to understand it. I keep trying -- and I will keep
>> trying ... because the best thing I know to do about being human is to try
>> to learn to think in ways I am not accustomed to.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Andy <mimi.erva@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> I read about it too, but it really saddens me to think of the animals
>>> and the way they're tortured so humans can eat, like there's nothing else
>>> they can eat. Lately it's become a struggle even to go to Wal-Mart or
>>> Target because of the way people treat their children. Sometimes I just
>>> can't deal with it. It's like why do they have children. It's all the same
>>> thing, the same heartlessness, the same brainlessness.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Fri, 11/7/08, Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>* wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Where politics hits the grass
>>> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 5:23 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> I wasn't suggesting you join an environmental group (or any group) at
>>> all. I think it is encouraging that there are some very real, very
>>> practical ways that our society is addressing both the environmental and
>>> economic issues these days. It encourages me. I like to be aware of things
>>> which look hopeful and encouraging and pragmatic. Reading some of the ideas
>>> helps me think outside the box a little. I like that too.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Andy <mimi.erva@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're right. But the way I look at it, I'm just one yeast out of
>>>> almost seven billion, and I'm absolutely ineffective in swaying others. I
>>>> did my best on this list to convince people to vote for Gore in 2000 and I
>>>> know that all those good republicans out there voted for Bush anyway. Then
>>>> they did it again in 2004. Best case scenario they voted for Ralph Nader
>>>> which is a vote for Bush. Plus look at all our discussions on pharma.
>>>> What
>>>> a waste of time that was in convincing anybody.
>>>>
>>>> I live my for the most part environmentally conservative little life,
>>>> which is to say, I don't eat meat and haven't for decades (tons and tons of
>>>> pollution and water saved) and a list of other things that I do personally
>>>> to save energy and water and electricity. Beyond that, there's nothing I
>>>> can do. People don't care. They love their meat and will not part with
>>>> it. They think it's a bother putting on a sweater. They use water like
>>>> it's always going to be there. They burn those stupid votive type lights
>>>> in
>>>> their windows all night year round.
>>>>
>>>> If I join an environmental group, what's that going to do? Those few
>>>> who care are already implementing changes; the vast majority will glaze
>>>> over. My neighbors have no idea about climate change. Can you imagine?
>>>> No
>>>> idea. If I tell them, I'm being their mother and they wouldn't believe it
>>>> anyway. And companies like ExxonMobil spend millions advertising against
>>>> climate change, so those who even heard of global warming think it's some
>>>> myth.
>>>>
>>>> The society and the economy have to be rethought from the ground up. We
>>>> have to reverse consumerism, get people to want to build the economy around
>>>> environmentalism, and that is not going to happen. My efforts to convince
>>>> anyone would be quixotic at best. Beyond even all that, it's too late.
>>>> The
>>>> problem if it isn't irreversible just yet will be in the near future.
>>>>
>>>> That's not to say that I don't admire others who are activists, it's
>>>> just that I would feel *more* impotent, not less if I were to become
>>>> active,
>>>> the way Cindy Sheehan finally in despair said Americans deserve the
>>>> government they have. Maybe the bottom line the way I see it is that the
>>>> human race is out to destroy itself, and there's no way I can stop them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Fri, 11/7/08, Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>* wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Where politics hits the grass
>>>> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 3:02 AM
>>>>
>>>> You say things like "what can be done?" and shrug in resignation, but
>>>> when there are real, viable, approaches to solutions out there you aren't
>>>> interested in them? Or, rather, you aren't interested in what people who
>>>> are passionate about changing things are proposing? That sounds like
>>>> exactly what you're describing by "that's the way people are". The irony
>>>> is
>>>> that you aren't interested in glancing at a website or discussing it which
>>>> actually suggests specific ways to make the economy thrive by working on
>>>> the
>>>> environment...you seem to just want to complain that no one cares, there
>>>> aren't any decent ideas, and no one will pay attention ....wo, say, a
>>>> website like that...
>>>>
>>>> But whaddo I know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Julie Krueger
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie Krueger
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> --
> Julie Krueger
>
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--
Julie Krueger
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