"Phil Enns" writes: : Omar is confused on several points so I will do my best to help him: : : "If you want to make a government establish a law that grants a right, : you need to argue that such a right exists." : : A legal right exists when a government establishes the relevant law. : Before that, there is no right, just moral arguments. "Rights language" can be quite confusing, but one thing is clear: rights can be legal---a grant of a right from a government---but they can also be moral. In general, human rights---i.e., civil rights---are moral rights that, to a large extent because of treaties, are recognized as being also legal rights, binding on governments. Such legal right are not usually created by governments, they are created by international law, although the may also be embodied in the statutes or the constitutions of individual states. : "I am not sure what counts as a natural right, as opposed to one : established by law." : : You don't need to. As you noted yourself, property rights are not : natural. Try to explain that to a dog when you are trying to take a bone away from him. Most political conservatives who have bothered to think about the matter would insist that property rights are the most natural of rights. If, on the other hand, you are claiming that the only natural rights are those that exist in a Hobbesian state of nature, then you are denying that there are any natural rights.. -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html