[lit-ideas] Re: In the Name of Efficiency [was: Punitive Expeditions, Helm's World, Psychotic Expeditions, Pasifistic Expeditons, Experience War, Who are you calling crazy?, Honor: A History, etc.]

From: "Judith Evans" <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:17:46 +0100

>Perhaps the point you are making is that it is important that our countries 
>train military folk >who are not hostile towards civilians?

(and not contemptuous of) yes. and I am suggesting also that they often succeed

>young people have passed through a liminal experience, 
>now think themselves improved, look back on their old 
>selves as lesser beings? Eventually, they mature.

One hopes they mature and clearly I believe many do.  Incidentally I have
known officer cadets who exhibited less a contempt for civilians than
worryingly rigid views.  But I have also known ones who did not.
And graduates of Sandhurst, I have noted, vary tremendously in that way
(but I see no sign that the less "military and closed-minded" ones
are thought to be less good soldiers).

(I speak now not only of ex-officers I happen to have met but of
people I taught, some of whom I knew well, with some of whom, I was more than a 
little 
friendly.)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Ritchie 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:38 AM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: In the Name of Efficiency [was: Punitive 
Expeditions, Helm's World, Psychotic Expeditions, Pasifistic Expeditons, 
Experience War, Who are you calling crazy?, Honor: A History, etc.] 

  On May 9, 2006, at 5:08 PM, Judith Evans wrote:

    I don't know how far the "boot camp" notion extends to all
    military practice but do know that (e.g.) the Royal Scots Dragoon
    Guards have a tremendous "family" and "brother" feel, that all
    the officers who'd left in the year prior to Desert Storm 'phoned
    up to ask if they were needed *even though they did not want to
    go and fight in that war*. But I would not describe their
    attitude as

    LH> They are taught that civilians barely have sense enough to
    get
    LH>out of each other's way. We are taught not worry about the
    LH>dumb things they say and do

    but then -- as I suggest in my reply to you -- perhaps they don't
    quite have "boot camp". Training does vary between regiments and
    types of soldier. Regiments differ.

  I agree that there are differences, but British training does aim at breaking 
down civilian identity, see for example:

  http://www.pipss.org/document46.html

  "Essentially, basic training takes the civilian identity of each individual, 
breaks it down under constant pressure and rebuilds it as a soldier. It is a 
time of unique psychological vulnerability, especially for adolescent men and 
women whose personalities are still forming. NCO instructors have a crucial 
role in this process, reinforcing behaviour that confirms individuals’ new 
identities as soldiers and condemning that which does not." 

  Perhaps the point you are making is that it is important that our countries 
train military folk who are not hostile towards civilians? But surely you would 
agree that some stereotyping and hostility are psychologically likely outcomes 
of this training; young people have passed through a liminal experience, now 
think themselves improved, look back on their old selves as lesser beings? 
Eventually, they mature.

  One of my memories may be worth recounting. At the end of a highland games 
there was a tug of war between the Abbotsford police team--the champions, from 
Canada-- and a team of U.S. Marines. Abbotsford won easily, a matter of 
technique. Then came THE moment. Abbortsford's women's team challenged the 
Marines. They also won. Again a matter of technique. The Marines went into a 
frenzy of punitive push ups. And then they got up and shook hands and acted 
like good sports. This must have been hard. The point is that the way Marines 
are sometimes characterized--sometimes leading with the outside, rather than 
the inside, of the head--is quite unjust. They assessed the situation, did 
their best, behaved with great civility.

  On the outside and the inside of the head, you might find the end of this 
interesting:

  http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/sasgene.htm

  David Ritchie,
  Portland, Oregon

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[lit-ideas] Re: In the Name of Efficiency [was: Punitive Expeditions, Helm's World, Psychotic Expeditions, Pasifistic Expeditons, Experience War, Who are you calling crazy?, Honor: A History, etc.]

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