Lawrence, the world is flat. If you can't see something over the horizon, it isn't there, right? I know Berryman's bio. I said on this list months ago that his mother allegedly killed his father and/or his father committed suicide. I don't know what your biographers said about his letters, but it's a no brainer that one's father being killed in one fashion or another is going to have a lasting impact on a child, especially when that child eventually kills himself too. Most biographers today do concern themselves with childhoods because that's where a person is formed. Then they go on into the nitty gritty of daily life. They don't always connect the dots for the reader, and if they don't connect the dots, therefore there is no connection, right? As far as laughing, people laugh at just about anything. They laughed at the discovery of air, of bacteria, of the earth going around the sun, you name it. If it couldn't be seen, they laughed at it. If you think drinking is so much fun you'll have to explain why Berryman killed himself if he was having so much fun drinking. He killed himself after he was sober. Therefore, whatever the alcohol was numbing hurt enough that he didn't want it anymore. Why didn't he just start drinking again and have more fun, summon his muse, find another relationship. The man killed himself Lawrence. To see no reason for that is to see nothing at all. Denying the unconscious is like looking at the ocean and imagining that the surface is all there is. I'll take my bland life of looking beneath the waves any day. This is kind of like the discussions we had for months about Iraq. There's no point in talking to you. Write me back and tell me the unconscious is for wimps or it defies free will or it's anti-American or whatever is your stock line is. BTW, regarding the one size fits all, if that weren't the case, medicine, including psychology, would be impossible. BTW, if you (all) thought drinking enabled you to write better, did you ever read after you were sober what you wrote when you were drunk? I'll bet you thought it was inspired. I'll bet Mel Gibson can relate to that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 10/11/2006 11:21:42 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: American poetic scene at the beginning of 72 Irene: I told you why Berryman drank based upon the two biographies I read. They were written by people who had access to information that none of the rest of us on Lit-Ideas has -- at least that?s what I thought. But you in effect declare those biographers wrong and make your own pronouncement. Tell me please that you have all Berryman?s secret letters, and if not that you were one of Berryman?s secret lovers. Assuming just for the sake of discussion that you haven?t the foggiest justification for what you are talking about, perhaps you weren?t aware that it was commonly believed among poets, painters, and novelists that drinking enhanced one?s talent. One could more readily reach one?s muse under the influence. In the early days of my poetic considerations I was taught that very thing and tried it out. I have fri3nds who assumed it true. I lost touch with them because they pursued their muses more enthusiastically than I did and lost their jobs. I discovered that I was an aberration, that is, I could write better sober. But none of drank to ?numb his pain.? We would have laughed at such an idea. Drinking was fun and it enabled one to write better. That?s why we drank. But now there is Irene?s ?one-size-fits-all? reason for why anyone drinks. Gosh, what a bland world you live in. Lawrence