Re: Window Eyes; was Go to Meeting?
- From: "Bruce Toews" <Bruce@xxxxxxxx>
- To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:41:13 -0500
What you said is that it is the people who test JAWs who are to blame
for any problems with JAWS. That is what Caroline and I took issue with,
because we know the time and effort that goes into the process.
As for your questions, we as beta testers are under a nondisclosure
agreement and therefore cannot discuss the beta testing process. I hqave
said my peace on this subject.
Bruce
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:49:13 -0400, "Zaheer Sheikh"
<cybergeek2020@xxxxxxxxx> said:
> I repeat, I am not blaming anyone who is not payed to test Jaws.
>
> Broose,
>
> Since you've experienced the private Jaws test drive, I have few
> questions for you.
>
> 1. When you joined the Jaws testing teem, were you assigned to test
> particular application?
>
> 2. Did you received any check list?
>
> 3. Did you tested Jaws 10.0.1139 before it was released to public?
>
> 4. Did you communicated directly with Jaws programmers?
>
> If your answer is no to any of the questions listed above, then there
> is definitely a problem somewhere in that area.
>
> Not everyone likes to participate in Jaws beta test drive, and not
> everyone gets chance to test Jaws updates, but As a Jaws owner, and
> member of Jaws mailing list, we can create a check list, and e-mail it
> to Jaws testers.
>
> I know many people like Chip Orange who has switched to another screen
> reader because they have severel issues with Jaws, but I never heard
> anyone who has switched to Jaws.
>
> If you believe that finding a solution to any problem is whining,
> insulting, and slapping, then so be it.
>
> Ok, I am not whining, I am not insulting anyone, and I dont want to
> play any blame game on this list. All I'm trying to do is to help
> freedomscientific to improve Jaws.
>
> On 4/27/09, Bruce Toews <bruce@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > As one of the testers, I must object to the implications in this message.
> > Unless you've actually been through the experience, you have no idea how
> > hard and how thoroughly we test JAWS before it is released. The testing
> > team is comprised of people with slow connections, fast connections,
> > everything in between; the newest software, legacy software, and
> > everything in between; Americans, along with non-Americans from all over
> > the globe. I personally take such comments as an insult to the hours of
> > time we donate to making JAWS as good as we can make it. The fact is, we
> > can't catch everything. No one can. No group of people can match every
> > situation, every set of circumstances, every scenario. It's just not going
> > to happen. But until you experience it, until you've been there, until
> > you've had your machine become totally unusable because you were trying to
> > test something to make JAWS better, don't blame us. The people behind JAWS
> > beta testing are some of the most dedicated people I know, and many of us
> > very willingly get inconvenienced so that we can help FS give you the best
> > product possible.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Zaheer Sheikh wrote:
> >
> >> I know that freedom scientific has funtastic programmers, they do a
> >> good job when implementing new features in Jaws.
> >>
> >> I will only blame freedomscientific's Jaws testers. It looks like that
> >> Jaws testers allow to release the program without doing a thoro
> >> testing. Not all Jaws programmers use Jaws, and they cannot fix the
> >> bugs unless testers report all the bugs.
> >>
> >> I will especially blame those Jaws testers who test MS Office Word,
> >> Outlook, and Internet Explorer. Every time when I install a new
> >> release of Jaws, there is a problem in MS Office Word, Outlook, and
> >> Internet explorer. Maybe these Jaws testers use slow computers, and
> >> slow internet connection. Most Jaws bugs are noticeable in faster
> >> computers, with high speed internet connection.
> >>
> >> I havent dealt much with freedomscientific's tech support, but I have
> >> heard several complaints.
> >>
> >> I love all the features in Jaws, but there are few bugs that makes the
> >> product very unfit. However, I do not have any issue with any other
> >> freedomscientific product.
> >>
> >> I think that freedomscientific have to reconsider their Jaws Testing teem.
> >>
> >> Note that when I say Jaws Testers, I mean those who are payed to test
> >> Jaws.
> >>
> >> On 4/27/09, Chip Orange <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> Hi Anne,
> >>>
> >>> Someone else asked me my reasons for switching to Window Eyes, and
> >>> here's my answer to him below.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone of course is free to disagree with my conclusions, but I'd like
> >>> to point out one thing: most people I believe are loyal to a particular
> >>> screen reader because it's the one they own, and the one they know. in
> >>> my case, my employer has purchased for me both jaws 10 with an SMA and
> >>> Window Eyes with an SMA. this is to allow me to use what's best for a
> >>> given situation. Even though there are a few things jaws does do better
> >>> (at least right now), I cannot recall the last time I switched back to
> >>> use jaws. It's been many months anyway. In my mind, since I was a jaws
> >>> user for somewhere between 10 and 15 years, this says more than any of
> >>> the arguments below do. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly use jaws if I
> >>> need to, it's not a dogma for me as it is with a few people to live and
> >>> die by a single reader.
> >>>
> >>> Chip
> >>>
> >>> --------
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As for Window Eyes, well, I'd say it's absolutely worth
> >>>> switching, but it's going to be a little hard to come up with
> >>>> all the reasons. call me if these don't sound like enough to you.
> >>>>
> >>>> * first, I could get absolutely no useful support out of
> >>>> freedom scientific. when I reported bugs even, weeks would
> >>>> go by, and I'd get an email back saying "have you tried
> >>>> rebooting"? I'm a computer analyst; yes I had tried
> >>>> rebooting, made that clear, and made it clear to them I only
> >>>> wanted to report a bug so it could get fixed. most of the
> >>>> time I couldn't get past their "tech support" to get the
> >>>> report entered. I got so frustrated on the phone one time I
> >>>> asked the guy if he would escalate the call to the next
> >>>> level; he said no because *he was* the head of escalations!
> >>>>
> >>>> I also found myself paying a great deal for strictly bug-fix
> >>>> releases. I resent that; I feel as a general rule you should
> >>>> pay for new features, and bugs should be fixed as time allows
> >>>> and thrown in the next release if not too severe.
> >>>>
> >>>> I was ready to switch for this reason alone, and then I read
> >>>> that GW tries to make things financially easier for blind
> >>>> people who have to purchase out of their own pocket; so they
> >>>> offer a time payment plan for purchasing, as well as a
> >>>> monthly rental plan for window eyes (so you can try it for a
> >>>> while, or, if you can't even afford the payments of the time
> >>>> payment plan then maybe you can afford the rental payments).
> >>>>
> >>>> Next, they don't have any copy protection. a lot of my calls
> >>>> to FS tech support were about the malfunctioning
> >>>> copy-protection of jaws. I had a laptop with vista, and
> >>>> after months of messing with tech support, we finally found a
> >>>> solution which took me 8 separate authorizations, having to
> >>>> apply for a reset after every 3, so that my laptop would work
> >>>> with jaws whether the wifi radio was on or off, and whether
> >>>> my bluetooth radio was on or off, and whether both radios
> >>>> were on or off (8 distinct states, that their copy protection
> >>>> saw as 8 different pcs). and at work, I'm always having to
> >>>> changes pcs, or get a temporary second one in my office to
> >>>> test something out.
> >>>>
> >>>> so, I couldn't stand support and copy protection, and then
> >>>> along came window eyes scripting!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> George, if you're not a programmer this is going to be very
> >>>> hard to convince you how astoundingly good it is. I know you
> >>>> know jaws has scripting. what you may not know is that it's
> >>>> extremely difficult and inflexible, because it's their own
> >>>> made up language from the early DOS version.
> >>>>
> >>>> because it's so difficult, few scripts are written, and when
> >>>> they are available they are very costly because it took
> >>>> someone so much time to make them work correctly.
> >>>>
> >>>> I tried to script applications I was having trouble with in
> >>>> jaws; no luck! and when I did get a small change working,
> >>>> the next time a release of jaws came out, it erased my
> >>>> scripting change because the only way to make it work was to
> >>>> incorporate it into their main script, which of course got
> >>>> replaced during the upgrade.
> >>>>
> >>>> the scripting under window eyes is a very common language
> >>>> called vb script. it's also got a second common language
> >>>> called java script. there are dozens of free or low cost
> >>>> e-books and tutorials on these languages. they are easy to
> >>>> use, easy to learn, and have a modern design. and finally,
> >>>> if that isn't good enough, you can write scripts in any
> >>>> language you want. so, if you like cobol, write your scripts
> >>>> in cobol, and communicate with window eyes via windows COM.
> >>>>
> >>>> I got several problematic programs working with scripts
> >>>> within a couple of months, and this is even though I'm
> >>>> married and working full time and seriously ill. it's just that easy.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't have to complain and complain any more to my screen
> >>>> reader maker that my particular application doesn't work with
> >>>> the screen reader; I have another option: I can script a
> >>>> solution, or get someone else to script a solution.
> >>>>
> >>>> the last time I checked I think there were nearly one hundred
> >>>> free scripts for downloading from the gw site. which is one
> >>>> more advantage: anyone who writes a script can put it up on
> >>>> the GW site for instant distribution to all other users.
> >>>> this is true for both free and for sale scripts (all the ones
> >>>> I mentioned were for free). they tend to be for free because
> >>>> it's so easy to write a script that no one so far (that I
> >>>> know of), has felt like they needed to be paid for their time.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, I know I'm going on and on, so let me summarize: the 2
> >>>> products are roughly similar in what they can read out of the
> >>>> box; each has a few problems here and there. I expect when I
> >>>> report problems to GW they will eventually be fixed.
> >>>> however, GW has this great scripting environment, and I do
> >>>> not expect the scripting environment in jaws will ever change.
> >>>>
> >>>> one last thing: the owner of GW, and the head of support, and
> >>>> some of window eyes software engineers, all participate in
> >>>> their mailing and support lists, so whatever your comments,
> >>>> you can be sure you will get them to the people who matter,
> >>>> and often, they will answer you and help you solve your
> >>>> problem, or tell you it's been noted to be worked on.
> >>>>
> >>>> please consider not buying that next jaws upgrade, try
> >>>> renting window eyes for a few months so you can really take
> >>>> the time to learn it.
> >>>>
> >>>> call me if you have any questions, or write back.
> >>>>
> >>>> Chip
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Chip Orange
> >>>> Database Administrator
> >>>> Florida Public Service Commission
> >>>>
> >>>> Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> (850) 413-6314
> >>>>
> >>>> (Any opinions expressed are solely those of the author and
> >>>> do not necessarily reflect those of the Florida Public
> >>>> Service Commission.)
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> JFW related links:
> >>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
> >>> Scripting mailing list:
> >>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
> >>> JFW List instructions:
> >>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> >>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> >>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> >>> Alternative archives located at:
> >>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
> >>>
> >>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> >>> the
> >>> way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact
> >>> the
> >>> list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>
> >> --
> >> JFW related links:
> >> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
> >> Scripting mailing list:
> >> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
> >> JFW List instructions:
> >> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> >> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> >> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> >> Alternative archives located at:
> >> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
> >>
> >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> >> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> >> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>
> > --
> > JFW related links:
> > JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
> > Scripting mailing list:
> > http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
> > JFW List instructions:
> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > Alternative archives located at:
> > http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
> >
> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
> > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
> > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> --
> JFW related links:
> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
> Scripting mailing list:
> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
> JFW List instructions:
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> Alternative archives located at:
> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
Bruce Toews
dogriver@xxxxxxxx
--
JFW related links:
JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
Scripting mailing list:
http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
JFW List instructions:
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
Alternative archives located at:
http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Other related posts:
