Yes I completely agree Graham. Belinda On 19 Apr 2012, at 11:18, "Graham Page" <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > It's getting harder to find machines and anyway, I think training people on > older equipment just to then make them learn something totally different is > likely to be the wrong approach. > > If the person who you are training becomes really competent and finds that > he or she actually quite enjoys dabbling about with computers and is happy > to learn extra things, then this could be a good approach. > > If however the person uses the computer but purely relies on it to get > things done and is not happy to experiment then this would just be > confusing. > > I have also found over the years, not surprisingly, that the people who gain > most from computer training are those who have access to a computer outside > class. It is increasingly likely that this will be a computer running > Office 2007 or later and windows 7. > > It's also hard enough developing training courses and supporting users of > one version of an operating system and one version of office within a > college environment, so having 2 versions of office just leeds to > unnecessary work. > > Regards > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf Of Tiddy Ogg > Sent: 18 April 2012 19:16 > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, > WLM etc > > Belinda, just, as you say, once the basics are learned, then you can go on > to short cut keys etc, is it possible to train your clients on a machine > still using older versions of Windows? Surely, you can find some source of > old programs. Many of us are still using XP or earlier, and versions of > Office going back to 2002 or before. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf Of Belinda P > Sent: 18 April 2012 15:56 > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, > WLM etc > > Hi Graham and Ian and all, > > I'd like to back up what Graham said with some more thoughts. > > In the past (up to Office 2003, ie before the ribbon) with Word and many > other Microsoft programmes it was really very easy to teach new users the > basics so they could be working on their own quite quickly. As most things > > were accessible through the menu bar you only had to teach someone a few > things for them to be able to do a lot, EG: > Alt to get to the menu bar, then right-left arrows to move through each item > > (File, Edit etc) and then up/down arrows to move through the options in the > drop down menus. This way the user didn't actually have to memorise any > shortcut keys, and it was clear and easy and logical. They could learn more > > shortcuts for faster access (eg Control s for save) as they went along, and > this was easy to do as the shortcut was listed on the menu item. > > The new ribbon system has completely changed this whole way of working and > removed the ease and simplicity. I know that many many people absolutely > hate the ribbon, not just Jaws users, but huge numbers of sighted users too. > > Yes, I'm sure that it is possible to learn it, and I'm sure there are many > people who think it's great, but different people work and learn in > different ways and it seems me that the old programmes could cater for these > > different people. They had icons for the mouse users, and menus for > keyboard users or those that prefer to see things in lists rather than > pictures and diagrams scattered around the screen. This has now changed > and it seems to me that everyone is being forced into one way of working. > > Graham says that Windows 8 will be even more different, so I fear that it > will bring many more problems and complaints. > > Belinda > > -----Original Message----- > From: Graham Page > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:09 PM > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, > WLM etc > > Hello Ian. > > I think there is plenty of evidence out there that key strokes are far from > intuitive. > > There are menny examples but let's take a commonly used one. > > To access the current message in Outlook 2007 in a browser, you press alt h > followed by x then v. > > Alt h takes you to messages. No h anywhere in messages. > > X then takes you to actions, no x in actions, though V for view in browser > works. > > The point is that short cut keys have become rather unintuitive. > > Then when using ribbons, once you get to the lower ribbon, the controls are > a mess of buttons, split buttons, check boxes and drop down lists. I know > FS has produced the virtual ribbon but that is a rather screenreader > specific thing. > > I would be very interested to hear how you would go about directing a new > computer user to use the ribbon. I have found that in general the only way > is to teach short cut keys for those functions that are most used such as f7 > for spell check, control n for new message or control o for opening a new > document but this is not really ideal and it does not give the new user a > full picture. > > Regards > > Graham > > -----Original Message----- > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf Of Iain Lackie > Sent: 18 April 2012 13:23 > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, > WLM etc > > I'm still not encountering problems with Windows Live Mail and JAWS. With > any change, there is a learning curve. I wonder if people aren't willing to > take sufficient time to learn. Freedom Scientific have obviusly taken the > difficulties people were having with the ribbon as they have introduced to > JAWS the Virtual Ribbon view. It is my belief that there is a lot of > expression of the view that certain programs don't work as well with JAWS > which is expressed at second hand and is not in fact the case. I expect that > > having expressed this view, lots of flak will come flying my way. > > Iain > -----Original Message----- > From: Belinda P > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:25 PM > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, > WLM etc > > This message follows on from the jaws and WLM discussion really, but is a > wider subject than just about WLM. > > I am not a Jaws user myself (I teach people to use it, hence being on this > list), but I do like to use the keyboard a lot, rather than the mouse as I > find it so much quicker to do most things. What I feel is that older > programmes worked so much better with the keyboard than newer programs. > Windows XP, Office 2003, Outlook Express for example, these all worked > really well using the keyboard, and were quite easy to teach to Jaws users. > Now though - with Vista, Windows 7, Office 2007/10, Windows Live Mail etc - > it has become a lot harder to use the keyboard with these programmes, and > therefore a lot harder to teach. And what I notice is that people say there > are problems with Jaws working with these programmes (at least at first, > until Freedom Scientific sort it out). So isn't it a problem with the way > the programmes are written and designed, rather than with Jaws? Shouldn't > we be feeding back to Microsoft about the way these programmes are written > these days? > > I hope I'm making some sense, I'm finding it a bit hard to put this into > words. What do people think? > Belinda > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Husna Begum > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:07 PM > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird > > but what i want to know is how comes jaws doesn't support wlm etc fully, > it's been out for 3 years or something. the support should not be still > patchy after all this time. > > Husna > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Bailes > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:28 AM > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird > > Hi Belinda, > Mozilla thunderbird is an alternative to windows live mail. > Unfortunately, both programs have accessiblity problems, and problems with > Jaws support. > > David. > > original message: > What about Mozilla Thunderbird? Is that an alternative to Windows Live > Mail? > Belinda > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4940 - Release Date: 04/16/12 > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq