[jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc

  • From: Belinda P <bcpfizz@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 12:43:57 +0100

Yes I completely agree Graham. 
Belinda

On 19 Apr 2012, at 11:18, "Graham Page" <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> It's getting harder to find machines and anyway, I think training people on
> older equipment just to then make them learn something totally different is
> likely to be the wrong approach.
> 
> If the person who you are training becomes really competent and finds that
> he or she actually quite enjoys dabbling about with computers and is happy
> to learn extra things, then this could be a good approach.
> 
> If however the person uses the computer but purely relies on it to get
> things done and is not happy to experiment then this would just be
> confusing.
> 
> I have also found over the years, not surprisingly, that the people who gain
> most from computer training are those who have access to a computer outside
> class.  It is increasingly likely that this will be a computer running
> Office 2007 or later and windows 7.
> 
> It's also hard enough developing training courses and supporting users of
> one version of an operating system and one version of office within a
> college environment, so having 2 versions of office just leeds to
> unnecessary work.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Graham 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Tiddy Ogg
> Sent: 18 April 2012 19:16
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
> WLM etc
> 
> Belinda, just, as you say, once the basics are learned, then you can go on
> to short cut keys etc, is it possible to train your clients on a machine
> still using older versions of Windows?  Surely, you can find some source of
> old programs.  Many of us are still using XP or earlier, and versions of
> Office going back to 2002 or before.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Belinda P
> Sent: 18 April 2012 15:56
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
> WLM etc
> 
> Hi Graham and Ian and all,
> 
> I'd like to back up what Graham said with some more thoughts.
> 
> In the past (up to Office 2003, ie before the ribbon) with Word and many 
> other Microsoft programmes it was really very easy to teach new users the 
> basics so they could be working on their own quite quickly.   As most things
> 
> were accessible through the menu bar you only had to teach someone a few 
> things for them to be able to do a lot, EG:
> Alt to get to the menu bar, then right-left arrows to move through each item
> 
> (File, Edit etc) and then up/down arrows to move through the options in the 
> drop down menus.   This way the user didn't actually have to memorise any 
> shortcut keys, and it was clear and easy and logical.  They could learn more
> 
> shortcuts for faster access (eg Control s for save) as they went along, and 
> this was easy to do as the shortcut was listed on the menu item.
> 
> The new ribbon system has completely changed this whole way of working and 
> removed the ease and simplicity.  I know that many many people absolutely 
> hate the ribbon, not just Jaws users, but huge numbers of sighted users too.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure that it is possible to learn it, and I'm sure there are many 
> people who think it's great, but different people work and learn in 
> different ways and it seems me that the old programmes could cater for these
> 
> different people.  They had icons for the mouse users, and menus for 
> keyboard users or those that prefer to see things in lists rather than 
> pictures and diagrams scattered around the screen.   This has now changed 
> and it seems to me that everyone is being forced into one way of working.
> 
> Graham says that Windows 8 will be even more different, so I fear that it 
> will bring many more problems and complaints.
> 
> Belinda
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Graham Page
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:09 PM
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, 
> WLM etc
> 
> Hello Ian.
> 
> I think there is plenty of evidence out there that key strokes are far from
> intuitive.
> 
> There are menny examples but let's take a commonly  used one.
> 
> To access the current message in Outlook 2007 in a browser, you press alt h
> followed by x then v.
> 
> Alt h takes you to messages.  No h anywhere in messages.
> 
> X then takes you to actions, no x in actions, though V for view in browser
> works.
> 
> The point is that short cut keys have become rather unintuitive.
> 
> Then when using ribbons, once you get to the lower ribbon, the controls are
> a mess of buttons, split buttons, check boxes and drop down lists.  I know
> FS has produced the virtual ribbon but that is a rather screenreader
> specific thing.
> 
> I would be very interested to hear how you would go about directing a new
> computer user to use the ribbon.  I have found that in general the only way
> is to teach short cut keys for those functions that are most used such as f7
> for spell check, control n for new message or control o for opening a new
> document but this is not really ideal and it does not give the new user a
> full picture.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Graham
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Iain Lackie
> Sent: 18 April 2012 13:23
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
> WLM etc
> 
> I'm still not encountering problems with Windows Live Mail and JAWS. With
> any change, there is a learning curve. I wonder if people aren't willing to
> take sufficient time to learn. Freedom Scientific have obviusly taken the
> difficulties people were having with the ribbon as they have introduced to
> JAWS the  Virtual Ribbon view. It is my belief that there is a lot of
> expression of the view that certain programs don't work as well with JAWS
> which is expressed at second hand and is not in fact the case. I expect that
> 
> having expressed this view, lots of flak will come flying my way.
> 
> Iain
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Belinda P
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:25 PM
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
> WLM etc
> 
> This message follows on from the jaws and WLM discussion really, but is a
> wider subject than just about WLM.
> 
> I am not a Jaws user myself (I teach people to use it, hence being on this
> list), but I do like to use the keyboard a lot, rather than the mouse as I
> find it so much quicker to do most things.  What I feel is that older
> programmes worked so much better with the keyboard than newer programs.
> Windows XP, Office 2003, Outlook Express for example, these all worked
> really well using the keyboard, and were quite easy to teach to Jaws users.
> Now though - with Vista, Windows 7, Office 2007/10, Windows Live Mail etc -
> it has become a lot harder to use the keyboard with these programmes, and
> therefore a lot harder to teach.  And what I notice is that people say there
> are problems with Jaws working with these programmes (at least at first,
> until Freedom Scientific sort it out).  So isn't it a problem with the way
> the programmes are written and designed, rather than with Jaws?  Shouldn't
> we be feeding back to Microsoft about the way these programmes are written
> these days?
> 
> I hope I'm making some sense, I'm finding it a bit hard to put this into
> words.  What do people think?
> Belinda
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Husna Begum
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:07 PM
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird
> 
> but what i want to know is how comes jaws doesn't support wlm etc fully,
> it's been out for 3 years or something. the support should not be still
> patchy after all this time.
> 
> Husna
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: David Bailes
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:28 AM
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird
> 
> Hi Belinda,
> Mozilla thunderbird is an alternative to windows live mail.
> Unfortunately, both programs have accessiblity problems, and problems with
> Jaws support.
> 
> David.
> 
> original message:
> What about Mozilla Thunderbird?  Is that an alternative to Windows Live
> Mail?
> Belinda
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