[jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc

From: Tristram Llewellyn <tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 13:13:57 +0000
Some consolation is that Window 7 is likely to be the new XP and will be 
kicking around for a good while.  The Office ribbon affair is a more bitter 
pill but the ribbon is not going away Microsoft and a majority of users seem to 
find it works for them.  In my view there isn't a more efficient way of driving 
Office programs other than the deep level keyboard shortcuts like 
control+whatever control+shift+whatever etc.  Then leave the ribbon stuff for 
the stuff that is not covered by those deep level shortcuts.

We are getting to the stage with Office 2003 that we had with Office 2000 some 
years ago now in that it is beginning to fade into the legacy.  If you can use 
it successfully with your version of JAWS or an earlier one great go ahead with 
that but as time goes by this may become progressively less practical.

You can get information about keystrokes from this part of the Microsoft empire:
http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/keyboard.aspx


Regards.

Tristram Llewellyn
Technical Support
Sight and Sound Technology



-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Graham Page
Sent: 19 April 2012 11:18
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM 
etc

It's getting harder to find machines and anyway, I think training people on
older equipment just to then make them learn something totally different is
likely to be the wrong approach.

If the person who you are training becomes really competent and finds that
he or she actually quite enjoys dabbling about with computers and is happy
to learn extra things, then this could be a good approach.

If however the person uses the computer but purely relies on it to get
things done and is not happy to experiment then this would just be
confusing.

I have also found over the years, not surprisingly, that the people who gain
most from computer training are those who have access to a computer outside
class.  It is increasingly likely that this will be a computer running
Office 2007 or later and windows 7.

It's also hard enough developing training courses and supporting users of
one version of an operating system and one version of office within a
college environment, so having 2 versions of office just leeds to
unnecessary work.

Regards

Graham 

-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Tiddy Ogg
Sent: 18 April 2012 19:16
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
WLM etc

Belinda, just, as you say, once the basics are learned, then you can go on
to short cut keys etc, is it possible to train your clients on a machine
still using older versions of Windows?  Surely, you can find some source of
old programs.  Many of us are still using XP or earlier, and versions of
Office going back to 2002 or before.


-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Belinda P
Sent: 18 April 2012 15:56
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
WLM etc

Hi Graham and Ian and all,

I'd like to back up what Graham said with some more thoughts.

In the past (up to Office 2003, ie before the ribbon) with Word and many 
other Microsoft programmes it was really very easy to teach new users the 
basics so they could be working on their own quite quickly.   As most things

were accessible through the menu bar you only had to teach someone a few 
things for them to be able to do a lot, EG:
Alt to get to the menu bar, then right-left arrows to move through each item

(File, Edit etc) and then up/down arrows to move through the options in the 
drop down menus.   This way the user didn't actually have to memorise any 
shortcut keys, and it was clear and easy and logical.  They could learn more

shortcuts for faster access (eg Control s for save) as they went along, and 
this was easy to do as the shortcut was listed on the menu item.

The new ribbon system has completely changed this whole way of working and 
removed the ease and simplicity.  I know that many many people absolutely 
hate the ribbon, not just Jaws users, but huge numbers of sighted users too.

Yes, I'm sure that it is possible to learn it, and I'm sure there are many 
people who think it's great, but different people work and learn in 
different ways and it seems me that the old programmes could cater for these

different people.  They had icons for the mouse users, and menus for 
keyboard users or those that prefer to see things in lists rather than 
pictures and diagrams scattered around the screen.   This has now changed 
and it seems to me that everyone is being forced into one way of working.

Graham says that Windows 8 will be even more different, so I fear that it 
will bring many more problems and complaints.

Belinda

-----Original Message----- 
From: Graham Page
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:09 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, 
WLM etc

Hello Ian.

I think there is plenty of evidence out there that key strokes are far from
intuitive.

There are menny examples but let's take a commonly  used one.

To access the current message in Outlook 2007 in a browser, you press alt h
followed by x then v.

Alt h takes you to messages.  No h anywhere in messages.

X then takes you to actions, no x in actions, though V for view in browser
works.

The point is that short cut keys have become rather unintuitive.

Then when using ribbons, once you get to the lower ribbon, the controls are
a mess of buttons, split buttons, check boxes and drop down lists.  I know
FS has produced the virtual ribbon but that is a rather screenreader
specific thing.

I would be very interested to hear how you would go about directing a new
computer user to use the ribbon.  I have found that in general the only way
is to teach short cut keys for those functions that are most used such as f7
for spell check, control n for new message or control o for opening a new
document but this is not really ideal and it does not give the new user a
full picture.

Regards

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Iain Lackie
Sent: 18 April 2012 13:23
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
WLM etc

I'm still not encountering problems with Windows Live Mail and JAWS. With
any change, there is a learning curve. I wonder if people aren't willing to
take sufficient time to learn. Freedom Scientific have obviusly taken the
difficulties people were having with the ribbon as they have introduced to
JAWS the  Virtual Ribbon view. It is my belief that there is a lot of
expression of the view that certain programs don't work as well with JAWS
which is expressed at second hand and is not in fact the case. I expect that

having expressed this view, lots of flak will come flying my way.

Iain
-----Original Message----- 
From: Belinda P
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:25 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010,
WLM etc

This message follows on from the jaws and WLM discussion really, but is a
wider subject than just about WLM.

I am not a Jaws user myself (I teach people to use it, hence being on this
list), but I do like to use the keyboard a lot, rather than the mouse as I
find it so much quicker to do most things.  What I feel is that older
programmes worked so much better with the keyboard than newer programs.
Windows XP, Office 2003, Outlook Express for example, these all worked
really well using the keyboard, and were quite easy to teach to Jaws users.
Now though - with Vista, Windows 7, Office 2007/10, Windows Live Mail etc -
it has become a lot harder to use the keyboard with these programmes, and
therefore a lot harder to teach.  And what I notice is that people say there
are problems with Jaws working with these programmes (at least at first,
until Freedom Scientific sort it out).  So isn't it a problem with the way
the programmes are written and designed, rather than with Jaws?  Shouldn't
we be feeding back to Microsoft about the way these programmes are written
these days?

I hope I'm making some sense, I'm finding it a bit hard to put this into
words.  What do people think?
Belinda


-----Original Message----- 
From: Husna Begum
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:07 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird

but what i want to know is how comes jaws doesn't support wlm etc fully,
it's been out for 3 years or something. the support should not be still
patchy after all this time.

Husna


-----Original Message----- 
From: David Bailes
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:28 AM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird

Hi Belinda,
Mozilla thunderbird is an alternative to windows live mail.
Unfortunately, both programs have accessiblity problems, and problems with
Jaws support.

David.

original message:
What about Mozilla Thunderbird?  Is that an alternative to Windows Live
Mail?
Belinda
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References:
- [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
  - From: Belinda P
- [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
  - From: Tiddy Ogg
- [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
  - From: Graham Page
[jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc

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