HiI've no doubt the Sonar with CakeTalking is great, that isn't really at question.
What I'm trying to establish is why Cubase is considered to be not accessible when I know of at least one blind user, who has been blind far longer than he has been a musician, and he has very very few accessibility issue as, he says the vast majority of functions are associated with keystrokes and a bit of use with the jaws cursor.
He uses Cubase very very successfully and he didn't have a 300 page manual to learn by, he just launch into it and found out what did and didn't work.
So, would it be fair to say that something like CakeTalking is more targetted at people who need a little more hand holding from a computer standpoint.
Cheers Darren----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bell" <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:33 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase I've purposely kept quiet here since I'm sure you don't want to hear sales and marketing blurb from the U.K. distributor of CakeTalking for Sonar. However, perhaps it is indeed time I chimed in. First, Sonar is indeed used in the majority of the UK's music conservatoires who have visually impaired students. And although not a sequencing program, so is the Sibelius score writing package. (Accessible with Sibelius Speaking) For various reasons I can't publicly give you a list of Sonar users I know, but be assured there are lost in the U.K. and indeed world-wide. Quite a few of these users are professionals with expensive DAWs and their own studios. Unfortunately, as Tristram has mentioned, Cubase and Pro-Tools have not been written with screen reader accessibility in mind, and even JAWS scripting doesn't get close. On the other hand, the Sonar developers have been very co-operative. I may as well drop the name, Stevie Wonder, into the discussion. He has become an enthusiastic Sonar user, and indeed Caketalking's developer has spent many hours with Stevie who had some valuable input. Caketalking isn't JUST a set of JAWS scripts. It also comes with a 300 page tutorial, and so by the time you've been through it, you'll have a very good idea of what sequencing is all about. George Bell Managing Director Techno-Vision Systems Ltd 76 Bunting Road Ind. Est. NORTHAMPTON, NN2 6EE, UK. Tel: (01604) 792726 Fax: (01604) 792726 mailto:george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx web: http://www.techno-vision.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tristram Llewellyn Sent: 08 April 2008 15:45 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase "Of course Sonar is a successful product, but it's just not what most people use." I'm surprised because Cubase certainly in years gone by has not been such a big thing in the states, however perhaps the users you come accross are Windows based and if Cubase was big anywhere it was the Atari and Windows. Steinberg are based in Germany, it is not often that a European software title is anything like dominant in the US market. As for Pro Tools accessibility you may have miss-interpreted silence as being some kind of indication that it is off-topic which it isn't, sometimes you just haven't reached the right people or even the right list. Even in the UK nobody will be too shy to let you know what is on topic or not. Pro Tools is not presently accessible in any meaningful manner (to the best of my knowledge this is true for current releases) and few on this list will have had any direct experience with it at all. There have been petitions to Digidesign the developers, I do not know what progress, or lack of it has been made. In the professional world which is overwhelmingly Mac based there is a far bigger issue that VoiceOver lacks important infrastructure on which to provide the level of functionality required for that environment. Even talking in terms of Windows platform (on which it also does run) there would still need to be significant adaptions made. Digidesign have been trying to extend Pro Tools have however been doing a range of lower priced products with specific hardware (mostly M-Audio). As this reaches a market where visually impaired users are more likely to come accross it this issue may come into their radar. Regards. Tristram Llewellyn tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Technical Support Sight and Sound Technology -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of amie.slavin Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:00 PM To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase Hi Tristram, agreed, for the most part. Of course Sonar is a successful product, but it's just not what most people use, in my experience, anyway. I'd love to learn more about the ProTools platform, in terms of accessibility, but don't know where to find out. Did once tentatively ask this list but nobody answered, so I thought I'd better take the hint and regard it as off-topic. Thanks for your post; much appreciated. Cheers Amie----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristram Llewellyn"
<tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
Well to answer you first question, here is a page listing
those who have
put their name to Sonar for what it is worth: http://www.cakewalk.com/Artist/default.asp However in any case artist endorsements are not where it
is at anyway,
they get paid or a free copy or something to say what a
good time they
have with it. To very quickly go off on a tangent here most of what you
hear in
sequenced material coming out in charts or whatever either
side of the
pond has not been exclusively produced in either Cubase or
for that matter
Sonar. The days when Cubase was used (because there was
hardly anything
else) throughout pro studios all over the world are long
gone. In the DAW
(Digital Audio Workstation) market Pro Tools rules with
attendant starting
price tag of around £10,000 hardware and about half again
in plug-ins (at
least!). Cubase or Sonar may be used to start off a
project but you will
quite rarely find it used to finnish a top flight project.
I am not
trying to say it is rubbish (see later) but just to fill
you in on how it
fits into the general landscape these days. Last year
recording in a
studio I had access to a Pro Tools system with a 196
channels and a price
tag of somewhere in the region of "if you have to ask you
can't afford it"
hooked up to a a 96 chennel Audient analogue desk considered quite cheap at £25,000 and soon to be
replaced by
something about 5 to 7 times more expensive. There wasn't
a Cubase to be
seen anywhere, although I am sure the studio owner could
have dug us out
one if we had needed it and would probably have been a
hire in option.
So, what I am saying is that the best thing to do is
choose the path of
least resistance and also what works for you, in terms of
the former for
most new users this will be at presently that is Sonar, it
could be
something else in five years. Maybe if you were a very
competant Cubase
user to start with and then subsequently lost your sight
later on and
stuck with the same version you could manage somehow if
you had been
already very used to keyboard shortcuts etc. I have known
of people who
were able to do that (at least for a time). However, not
only is Sonar
not a bad choice (you can check out some of the mailing
lists devoted to
using screen readers and Sonar) but it is the right choice
given the
context that Cubase by no means holds the position it once
did as
pre-eminent. Accessbility for most third party programs can be
problematic at some
level or other via the screen whether it would be Sonar,
Cuibase or
whatever because the developers are not at all focused on
accessibility.
Fortunately there is a tremendous growth in external
controller type
interfaces and many plugins can be controlled either by
inserting MIDI
controllers directly into the sequence or via external
control surfaces as
themselves. I hope that helps, for what it is worth I do own and use
Cubase is my
hours off work and although I am not a JAWS or screen
reader user I spend
many hours supporting screen readers and I know from
personal experience
how Cubase operates in this context I can test it anytime
I want. Leaving
accessibility asside I would definitely consider Sonar
seriously, whilst
once it would have been a Mickey Mouse option these days
it certainly
bears comparison with Cubase and also happens to be more
accessible.
Regards. Tristram Llewellyn tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Technical Support Sight and Sound Technology -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of amie.slavin Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:49 PM To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase So where are all these successful mainstream users of
Sonar? I keep
hearing how great Sonar is for accessibility, and how it's
challenging Cubase for
industry standard status, but have yet to come across it
at all, other
than in the context of VI access. Also, how does Sonar handle
plugins, created
by third parties? I use Cubase, but with lots of help.
Know of one user
who used Cubase both before and after losing her sight,
and says she uses
it by memory. Darren, will write more off-list. Cheers Amie www.roughdiamondproductions.com/sound-artist----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristram Llewellyn"
<tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and CubaseThere are no JAWS scripts for it, that is certainly true
but it is not
the whole story. Cubase is full of owner drawn controls
which are quite
non-standard and therefore not scriptable, so nobody has
bothered when
you can get Cakewalk Sonar to talk better. Your contact
may be getting
on well with Cubase through a combination of sheer
determination and the
generous provision of keystrokes and perhaps it is an
earlier version as
well. The important point is that you are much less
likely to be able
to replicate that experience yourself. If one were looking at sequencing for music Cubase would
no longer
necessarily be the automatic choice it once was in any
case. Cakewalk
Sonar is just as good and they are hungry for customers
and are real
advocates of the Windows platform itself unlike Steinberg
who split
their development between Windows and Mac. All of this
means you get
really good software for something that is equal to or
cheaper in price
than Cubase and can be made to talk either with the
Caketalking scripts
or others that are freely available. Regards. Tristram Llewellyn tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Technical Support Sight and Sound Technology ________________________________ From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Darren H Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:15 AM To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Jaws and Cubase Hi folks I've heard a lot of stuff about Cubase not being
accessible for jaws
users. Is this actually the case or is it just that Jaws has no
scripts
available for it and there's a lot of mucking about with
the Jaws Cursor
to get it to operate properly. I ask because I know of one blind Jaws user, using jaws
4.5 who uses
Cubase very successfully. Yes, it's not for the fainthearted, but it obviously can
be done.
To my next question. Why are there no Jaws scripts available for Cubase as
it's such a
popular software application that uses standard windows
operations.
I'd appreciate any input. Cheers Darren Hartland www.bigmixentertainment.co.uk
____________________________________________________________ __________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
For more information please visit
http://www.messagelabs.com/email
____________________________________________________________ __________
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
link:-
**
[mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click
on the
** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
link:-
**
[mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
the
** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
____________________________________________________________ __________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
For more information please visit
http://www.messagelabs.com/email
____________________________________________________________ __________
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
link:-
**
[mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
the
** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ____________________________________________________________ __________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ____________________________________________________________ __________ ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq