[jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
- From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:28:20 +0100
I would back up what George says about people using Cubase by wrote, I have
known of people doing this also, however for a new learner as opposed to an
experience ex-sighted user. The reason it is often suggested that Cubase with
a screen reader is not really suitable is that for anyone who has no previous
experience with Cubase and comes at it with a screen reader just won't have the
feedback they need. With a non talking Cubase and no hotkeys where the user
may only have a shaky knowledge of MIDI and audio, having to fight an interface
that is not suited is really about the last thing they would want to do both
from a learning or creative point of view. This level of problem is not faced
by a sighted user who has equally good feedback whether they choose Cubase,
Sonar, Pro Tools, Logic or whatever. In addition Sonar enjoys a good fit with
Windows users since Cakewalk and later Sonar are Windows only and therefore
plays a part in its ammenability with Windows screen readers because their
development does not have to make the compromises inherent in supporting
multiple computing platforms which eventually hampers accessibility.
This also brings up the important issue that what people consider accessible is
a continuum of experience and not necessarily a yes or no judgement, different
people along the way will have different and relative opinions based not only
on how much of the screen they can see but resources of knowledge and
intellect. What the Cubase user who knows the software by wrote is saying is
that they can get enough out of it by whatever means to use and make it
function, put them on something more accessible but of which they have no
knoeldge and they would crawl along. However this does not then clearly relate
specifically what is accessibe or innaccessible. It demonstrates that they can
draw upon resources beyond the reach of a user who has no knwoledge of the
Cubase software previous to onset of their blindness and what the screen reader
may be telling them. This would be a very different kind of experience to that
of an experienced but now blind Cubase hack.
Where I would agree with Darren is the extent to which the Caketalking Sonar
package add-on is suited to hand holding, and that is by no means a bad thing.
It is a bit like those books for Dummies that nobody would want to be seen
reading but must obviously be helpful. What Sonar Caketalking therefore does
is make a hostile but scriptable environment accessible and also to provide a
kind of tutorial that integrates with tha modified experience more completely
than say if one were to lash up the free JSonar scripts to Sonar. Where
Caketalking may score for a student in college or an isolated home user in
particular is that ability to provde a consistent experience and hand holding
with the workings of DAW software. They may not have the resources of
knowledgeable help available. Where they do need help Goerge in the guise of
Techno-Vision can step in to help.
Regards.
Tristram Llewellyn
tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Technical Support
Sight and Sound Technology
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of George Bell
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:26 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
Hi Darren,
It is only a matter of weeks since I had a JAWS using,
professional musician tell me that he had been using Cubase
purely by memorising all the keystrokes and screens.
Otherwise for the most part, JAWS was fairly silent.
This is not really a good solution for a say a student in
college, who is having a hard enough time of it simply
learning the regular course material.
George.
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren H
Sent: 08 April 2008 17:25
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
Hi
I've no doubt the Sonar with CakeTalking is great, that
isn't really at question.
What I'm trying to establish is why Cubase is considered to
be not accessible when I know of at least one blind user,
who has been blind far longer than he has been a musician,
and he has very very few accessibility issue as, he says the
vast majority of functions are associated with keystrokes
and a bit of use with the jaws cursor.
He uses Cubase very very successfully and he didn't have a
300 page manual to learn by, he just launch into it and
found out what did and didn't work.
So, would it be fair to say that something like CakeTalking
is more targetted at people who need a little more hand
holding from a computer standpoint.
Cheers
Darren
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Bell" <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:33 PM
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
I've purposely kept quiet here since I'm sure you don't want
to hear sales and marketing blurb from the U.K. distributor
of CakeTalking for Sonar. However, perhaps it is indeed
time I chimed in.
First, Sonar is indeed used in the majority of the UK's
music conservatoires who have visually impaired students.
And although not a sequencing program, so is the Sibelius
score writing package. (Accessible with Sibelius Speaking)
For various reasons I can't publicly give you a list of
Sonar users I know, but be assured there are lost in the
U.K. and indeed world-wide. Quite a few of these users are
professionals with expensive DAWs and their own studios.
Unfortunately, as Tristram has mentioned, Cubase and
Pro-Tools have not been written with screen reader
accessibility in mind, and even JAWS scripting doesn't get
close. On the other hand, the Sonar developers have been
very co-operative.
I may as well drop the name, Stevie Wonder, into the
discussion. He has become an enthusiastic Sonar user, and
indeed Caketalking's developer has spent many hours with
Stevie who had some valuable input.
Caketalking isn't JUST a set of JAWS scripts. It also comes
with a 300 page tutorial, and so by the time you've been
through it, you'll have a very good idea of what sequencing
is all about.
George Bell
Managing Director
Techno-Vision Systems Ltd
76 Bunting Road Ind. Est.
NORTHAMPTON, NN2 6EE, UK.
Tel: (01604) 792726
Fax: (01604) 792726
mailto:george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
web: http://www.techno-vision.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tristram
Llewellyn
Sent: 08 April 2008 15:45
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
"Of course Sonar is a successful product, but it's just not
what most people use."
I'm surprised because Cubase certainly in years gone by has
not been such a big thing in the states, however perhaps the
users you come accross are Windows based and if Cubase was
big anywhere it was the Atari and Windows. Steinberg are
based in Germany, it is not often that a European software
title is anything like dominant in the US market.
As for Pro Tools accessibility you may have miss-interpreted
silence as being some kind of indication that it is
off-topic which it isn't, sometimes you just haven't reached
the right people or even the right list. Even in the UK
nobody will be too shy to let you know what is on topic or
not.
Pro Tools is not presently accessible in any meaningful
manner (to the best of my knowledge this is true for current
releases) and few on this list will have had any direct
experience with it at all. There have been petitions to
Digidesign the developers, I do not know what progress, or
lack of it has been made. In the professional world which
is overwhelmingly Mac based there is a far bigger issue that
VoiceOver lacks important infrastructure on which to provide
the level of functionality required for that environment.
Even talking in terms of Windows platform (on which it also
does run) there would still need to be significant adaptions
made. Digidesign have been trying to extend Pro Tools have
however been doing a range of lower priced products with
specific hardware (mostly M-Audio). As this reaches a
market where visually impaired users are more likely to come
accross it this issue may come into their radar.
Regards.
Tristram Llewellyn
tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Technical Support
Sight and Sound Technology
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
amie.slavin
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:00 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
Hi Tristram, agreed, for the most part. Of course Sonar is
a successful
product, but it's just not what most people use, in my
experience, anyway.
I'd love to learn more about the ProTools platform, in terms
of
accessibility, but don't know where to find out. Did once
tentatively ask
this list but nobody answered, so I thought I'd better take
the hint and
regard it as off-topic.
Thanks for your post; much appreciated.
Cheers
Amie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tristram Llewellyn"
<tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:40 PM
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
> Well to answer you first question, here is a page listing
those who have
> put their name to Sonar for what it is worth:
> http://www.cakewalk.com/Artist/default.asp
>
> However in any case artist endorsements are not where it
is at anyway,
> they get paid or a free copy or something to say what a
good time they
> have with it.
>
> To very quickly go off on a tangent here most of what you
hear in
> sequenced material coming out in charts or whatever either
side of the
> pond has not been exclusively produced in either Cubase or
for that matter
> Sonar. The days when Cubase was used (because there was
hardly anything
> else) throughout pro studios all over the world are long
gone. In the DAW
> (Digital Audio Workstation) market Pro Tools rules with
attendant starting
> price tag of around £10,000 hardware and about half again
in plug-ins (at
> least!). Cubase or Sonar may be used to start off a
project but you will
> quite rarely find it used to finnish a top flight project.
I am not
> trying to say it is rubbish (see later) but just to fill
you in on how it
> fits into the general landscape these days. Last year
recording in a
> studio I had access to a Pro Tools system with a 196
channels and a price
> tag of somewhere in the region of "if you have to ask you
can't afford it"
> hooked up to a a 96 chennel Audient analogue
> desk considered quite cheap at £25,000 and soon to be
replaced by
> something about 5 to 7 times more expensive. There wasn't
a Cubase to be
> seen anywhere, although I am sure the studio owner could
have dug us out
> one if we had needed it and would probably have been a
hire in option.
>
> So, what I am saying is that the best thing to do is
choose the path of
> least resistance and also what works for you, in terms of
the former for
> most new users this will be at presently that is Sonar, it
could be
> something else in five years. Maybe if you were a very
competant Cubase
> user to start with and then subsequently lost your sight
later on and
> stuck with the same version you could manage somehow if
you had been
> already very used to keyboard shortcuts etc. I have known
of people who
> were able to do that (at least for a time). However, not
only is Sonar
> not a bad choice (you can check out some of the mailing
lists devoted to
> using screen readers and Sonar) but it is the right choice
given the
> context that Cubase by no means holds the position it once
did as
> pre-eminent.
>
> Accessbility for most third party programs can be
problematic at some
> level or other via the screen whether it would be Sonar,
Cuibase or
> whatever because the developers are not at all focused on
accessibility.
> Fortunately there is a tremendous growth in external
controller type
> interfaces and many plugins can be controlled either by
inserting MIDI
> controllers directly into the sequence or via external
control surfaces as
> themselves.
>
> I hope that helps, for what it is worth I do own and use
Cubase is my
> hours off work and although I am not a JAWS or screen
reader user I spend
> many hours supporting screen readers and I know from
personal experience
> how Cubase operates in this context I can test it anytime
I want. Leaving
> accessibility asside I would definitely consider Sonar
seriously, whilst
> once it would have been a Mickey Mouse option these days
it certainly
> bears comparison with Cubase and also happens to be more
accessible.
>
> Regards.
>
> Tristram Llewellyn
> tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Technical Support
> Sight and Sound Technology
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of amie.slavin
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:49 PM
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
>
> So where are all these successful mainstream users of
Sonar? I keep
> hearing
> how great Sonar is for accessibility, and how it's
challenging Cubase for
> industry standard status, but have yet to come across it
at all, other
> than
> in the context of VI access. Also, how does Sonar handle
plugins, created
> by third parties? I use Cubase, but with lots of help.
Know of one user
> who used Cubase both before and after losing her sight,
and says she uses
> it
> by memory.
>
> Darren, will write more off-list.
>
> Cheers
> Amie
> www.roughdiamondproductions.com/sound-artist
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tristram Llewellyn"
<tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:04 PM
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase
>
>
>> There are no JAWS scripts for it, that is certainly true
but it is not
>> the whole story. Cubase is full of owner drawn controls
which are quite
>> non-standard and therefore not scriptable, so nobody has
bothered when
>> you can get Cakewalk Sonar to talk better. Your contact
may be getting
>> on well with Cubase through a combination of sheer
determination and the
>> generous provision of keystrokes and perhaps it is an
earlier version as
>> well. The important point is that you are much less
likely to be able
>> to replicate that experience yourself.
>>
>> If one were looking at sequencing for music Cubase would
no longer
>> necessarily be the automatic choice it once was in any
case. Cakewalk
>> Sonar is just as good and they are hungry for customers
and are real
>> advocates of the Windows platform itself unlike Steinberg
who split
>> their development between Windows and Mac. All of this
means you get
>> really good software for something that is equal to or
cheaper in price
>> than Cubase and can be made to talk either with the
Caketalking scripts
>> or others that are freely available.
>>
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Tristram Llewellyn
>> tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Technical Support
>> Sight and Sound Technology
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Darren H
>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:15 AM
>> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [jaws-uk] Jaws and Cubase
>>
>>
>> Hi folks
>>
>> I've heard a lot of stuff about Cubase not being
accessible for jaws
>> users.
>>
>> Is this actually the case or is it just that Jaws has no
scripts
>> available for it and there's a lot of mucking about with
the Jaws Cursor
>> to get it to operate properly.
>>
>> I ask because I know of one blind Jaws user, using jaws
4.5 who uses
>> Cubase very successfully.
>>
>> Yes, it's not for the fainthearted, but it obviously can
be done.
>>
>> To my next question.
>>
>> Why are there no Jaws scripts available for Cubase as
it's such a
>> popular software application that uses standard windows
operations.
>>
>> I'd appreciate any input.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Darren Hartland
>> www.bigmixentertainment.co.uk
>>
>>
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