[duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

  • From: "Peter Sullivan" <peter@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 05:46:13 -0400

George,

U+2103 and U+2109 are distinctly different from each other and from U+00B0,
which is an ambiguous degree mark.  I do believe that DBT handles all of
these characters in Word imports.

What we're not handling, is David's original file.  But then, this may be
another case where Word is doing something so odd that we'd have to do
something rather tricky ourselves to compensate.

If it is important, I'll pursue it.  Otherwise, I prefer to let it go.

- Peter 

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of George Bell
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:38 AM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

Interesting and confusing.

I'm using Word 2003, and have selected the Arial (MS) font.


To see what I am describing here, highlight the character, and call up the
Insert Symbol dialog in Word, which will select the character in that
dialog.

David's file shows the degree described as "Symbol" being Decimal 176, or
Hex 00B0 Hex"

However, if you type 00B0 then press Alt + x, (To convert to a Unicode
Glyph) it comes up described as a "DEGREE SIGN", which in turn gives ASCII
values of Decimal 176 and Hex 00B0.

The following may also be of particular interest to David & Joanie and
screen reader users.

JAWS 7.1 may well include a newly developed eloq.sbl file which contains
around 16,000 Unicode descriptions.  (Hence neither of you may have it yet.)

This reads David's degree as "Left Paren", and my manually generated Unicode
(00B0) as "Degree".

However, note the U+2103 and U+2109 in the attached which are displayed and
spoken as "Degrees Celsius" and "Degrees Fahrenheit".

(Anyone is welcome to a copy of the eloq.sbl file if you
wish)

George.

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
Sent: 10 May 2006 19:59
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

Joanie,

It doesn't apparently present itself in the underlying file as U+F0B0,
though that may be what is used to render it on screen.

- Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie Diggs
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:49 PM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

I was curious since a 53 in hex is not only not a degree symbol, but it's
not a not a left paren either.  Therefore, I copied the text and pasted it
into notepad.  It showed up as a non-printing character.  Then I asked JAWS
what it was.
Assuming JAWS is reporting it correctly, this symbol is Unicode character
f0b0 which falls in the range of numbers reserved for "private use."  

Very interesting.... Granted I'm bored with what I was working on. (grin)
Does the UK version of Word have symbols that we over here cannot insert?

--Joanie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Joanmarie Diggs
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:08 PM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British
code
> 
> You know, I just tossed JAWS at it and while it visually
looks like a 
> degree symbol, JAWS speaks it as a left paren.
> Then I put in a degree symbol, which JAWS speaks
correctly. 
> According to JAWS the original symbol is 53 in hex,
whereas the degree 
> symbol is B0.
> 
> Joanie
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
Sullivan
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:46 AM
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British
code
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > Perhaps Rebecca's proposed approach will work better for
you.
> > 
> > But, even if so, I'd like to have a closer look at the
problem with 
> > the file you sent.  When I import it to DBT, the degree
> sign is coming
> > in as a left parenthesis.  Is this what you find?
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David
Spybey
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:22 AM
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British
code
> > 
> > In Word writing degrees centigrade with the degrees sign
is not 
> > simple. A symbol for the degrees sign has to be imported
> from symbols
> > (though there may be another way that I do not use). DBT
> does not deal
> > with this correctly, eg word file attached. Is there
> another version
> > of the degrees sign which DBTR does work with?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > David Spybey
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
George Bell
> > Sent: 09 May 2006 19:39
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I'm on your side here, Peter.  SR1 will come soon
enough.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > George.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
> > 
> > Sullivan
> > 
> > Sent: 09 May 2006 17:36
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > George,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I will look into this.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > But it is increasingly unlikely that anything will be
done
> > 
> > about it before the release of DBT 10.6.  We are already
> > 
> > about a month behind our original schedule, there are
about
> > 
> > a year's worth of important fixes already in the
software,
> > 
> > and customers waiting for these.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
George
> > 
> > Bell
> > 
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:33 PM
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Peter,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I fear we have perhaps stepped into a veritable mine
field
> > 
> > with this.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I've just done a quick experiment with a couple of
Word's
> > 
> > Headings.  DBT seems to ignore Bold and Italics, not
just
> > 
> > for the entire heading, but for individual words
selected
> > 
> > and changed "for emphasis", such is the second line of
the
> > 
> > attached.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > George. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
> > 
> > Sullivan
> > 
> > Sent: 09 May 2006 17:24
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > George,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I haven't gone back to visit David's file since
receiving
> > 
> > some extra information from him this morning.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > But what you propose does make some sense as a possible
> > 
> > source of the trouble.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The goal of DBT's importer is to indicate emphasis, not
to
> > 
> > show typographical convention.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Consider the case of a level-two heading style in Word,
> > 
> > where text set in the style is automatically italicized.
> > 
> > The italics should not normally be shown in braille (at
> > 
> > least not per the rules with which I'm most familiar)
> > 
> > because the italics are a typographical convention, not
an
> > 
> > indication of emphasis.  Instead, the braille should
show
> > 
> > un-emphasized text set as a level-two heading.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > But further consider that the user wants to italicize
text
> > 
> > within the line
> > 
> > -- to indicate a word or two that are particularly
> > 
> > emphasized within the heading.  The print convention for
> > 
> > this is to revert the emphasized words to the
non-italicized
> > 
> > form.  DBT attempts to indicate the emphasis then by
looking
> > 
> > for places where the text is in a typographical form
> > 
> > distinct from what is defined for the paragraph style in
> > 
> > which it is defined.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > All of which is to say that the code is attempting to be
be
> > 
> > pretty "smart"
> > 
> > in cases that we considered during the design phase of
the
> > 
> > Word importer; and it may simply be getting tripped up
on
> > 
> > itself when it encounters the case that David brought to
our
> > 
> > attention.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
George
> > 
> > Bell
> > 
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:15 PM
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Hi David and Peter,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > This appears to be one of those nasty, nasty Wordisms
that
> > 
> > has driven us bonkers for ages.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > If you look very closely at the Bold version of the
file,
> > 
> > you will see that ONLY the letter is italicised.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Now highlight (A) and click on the Italic Icon.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Note how the A is no longer Italicised.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I could be wrong, but in removing the Italics and Bold
(per
> > 
> > David's non-bold file), I suspect what Word is actually
> > 
> > doing, is to put an "Invert Character Attribute" code in
> > 
> > (which perhaps DBT is not picking up), rather than
> > 
> > "removing" the attribute itself.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Then again, as the colloquialism goes, I could be "away
with
> > 
> > the fairies".
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > George.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David
> > 
> > Spybey
> > 
> > Sent: 09 May 2006 16:06
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Strange file containing brackets
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Most of the material that I prepare starts off as a
print
> > 
> > file for our partially sighted pupils and it is usually
in
> > 
> > large print and bold. I sometimes forget unbold the
whole
> > 
> > document before translating it hence the bold version of
the
> > 
> > file I got the strange results with. As a rule I would
> > 
> > expect all the bold and other unnecessary emphasis
marking
> > 
> > to be removed as it is not helpful to the Braille
reader.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > In the file I sent I can see that the capital A is in
> > 
> > italics but I would still not expect to get what is
> > 
> > happening but rather
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 7.,a7
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Whilst I might prefer it to have no italic sign at all I
> > 
> > would not expect DBT to understand my preference if I am
> > 
> > perverse enough to ask it to translate a file that I
have
> > 
> > provided with italics in it!
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > There is clearly something peculiar about the files I
sent
> > 
> > but I cannot see what it is. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > David Spybey
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
> > 
> > Sullivan
> > 
> > Sent: 08 May 2006 19:36
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> > 
> > documents
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Thanks for sending the .tex files (off-list).  As you
> > 
> > mentioned, these
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > aren't really necessary to my analysis, because the
problem
> > 
> > shows up also
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > (or perhaps exclusively) when importing from Word.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I'm now puzzled about what you want in the translation
in
> > 
> > this case.  You
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > mention that you would expect (A) to be: 7;,a7
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Does that mean that you expect emphasis markings to be
> > 
> > ignored in this case?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Behalf Of David Spybey
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:34 AM
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> > 
> > documents
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The file that caused the problem is attached. However I
need
> > 
> > to amend what I
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > have said slightly.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I used Word2Tex, as I usually do, to change the file
into a
> > 
> > .tex file that
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > SN will read. I did not check the SN file before using
DBT
> > 
> > and got the
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > result I mentioned. Looking more closely at the WORD
> > 
> > original the A was
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > italic not the closing bracket. In SN this came out as
the
> > 
> > opening bracket
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > in text the A and the closing bracket in Math and hence
the
> > 
> > result I got in
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > DBT. I should have spotted this fact so apologies for
giving
> > 
> > a false
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > impression of the problem.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I was going into SN because of all the mathematics that
was
> > 
> > in the WORD file
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > in MathType and the route I follow gets that into
reasonable
> > 
> > braille
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > mathematics. However, if you ignore the mathematics
issues
> > 
> > and just got
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > straight into DBT from the files I have attached the The
> > 
> > results of going
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > straight into DBT
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The version with (A) in bold gives
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 7..,a.'.17.'
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > And the version witgh (A) in non bold gives
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > .7.,a.17.'
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Whereas I would expect (A) to be
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 7;,a7
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > as happens in other files. So there must be something
rather
> > 
> > peculiar about
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > the two WORD files that I have attached. I have looked
at
> > 
> > them but cannot
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > see what would cause such peculiar results.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > David
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Sent: 04 May 2006 16:56
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> > 
> > documents
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Do you have a sample file in the format from which you
> > 
> > started (e.g. Word,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Scientific Notebook, text, or HTML)?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Behalf Of David Spybey
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 3:02 AM
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> > 
> > documents
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > It is strange how mistakes show up errors!
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I have just had
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > (A)
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > translated as
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 7,a>
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > rather than 7,a7
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I could not understand why until I realised that the
closing
> > 
> > bracket was in
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > italics by mistake. However I am not sure why DBT
translated
> > 
> > this as it did.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > David Spybey
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> >  
> > 
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> > 
> >  
> > 
> > * * * <<Brackets file.doc>> <<Brackets file non
bold.doc>>
> > 
> >  
> > 
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> >  
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http://www.duxburysystems.com
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > * * *
> > * This message is via list duxhelp at freelists.org.
> > * To unsubscribe, send a blank message with
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> > * is also located there.
> > * Duxbury Systems' web site is
http://www.duxburysystems.com
> > * * *
> 
> * * *
> * This message is via list duxhelp at freelists.org.
> * To unsubscribe, send a blank message with
> *   unsubscribe
> * as the subject to <duxhelp-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. You
may also
> * subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other
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archive
> * is also located there.
> * Duxbury Systems' web site is
http://www.duxburysystems.com
> * * *

* * *
* This message is via list duxhelp at freelists.org.
* To unsubscribe, send a blank message with
*   unsubscribe
* as the subject to <duxhelp-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. You may also
* subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other subscription
* options by visiting http://www.freelists.org.  The list archive
* is also located there.
* Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com
* * *


* * *
* This message is via list duxhelp at freelists.org.
* To unsubscribe, send a blank message with
*   unsubscribe
* as the subject to <duxhelp-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. You may also
* subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other subscription
* options by visiting http://www.freelists.org.  The list archive
* is also located there.
* Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com
* * *


* * *
* This message is via list duxhelp at freelists.org.
* To unsubscribe, send a blank message with
*   unsubscribe
* as the subject to <duxhelp-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. You may also
* subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other subscription
* options by visiting http://www.freelists.org.  The list archive
* is also located there.
* Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com
* * *

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