[duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

  • From: "Peter Sullivan" <peter@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:46:03 -0400

David,

Perhaps Rebecca's proposed approach will work better for you.

But, even if so, I'd like to have a closer look at the problem with the file
you sent.  When I import it to DBT, the degree sign is coming in as a left
parenthesis.  Is this what you find?

- Peter 

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of David Spybey
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:22 AM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

In Word writing degrees centigrade with the degrees sign is not simple. A
symbol for the degrees sign has to be imported from symbols (though there
may be another way that I do not use). DBT does not deal with this
correctly, eg word file attached. Is there another version of the degrees
sign which DBTR does work with?

 

David Spybey

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of George Bell
Sent: 09 May 2006 19:39
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

 

I'm on your side here, Peter.  SR1 will come soon enough.

 

George.

 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter

Sullivan

Sent: 09 May 2006 17:36

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

 

George,

 

I will look into this.

 

But it is increasingly unlikely that anything will be done

about it before the release of DBT 10.6.  We are already

about a month behind our original schedule, there are about

a year's worth of important fixes already in the software,

and customers waiting for these.

 

- Peter 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George

Bell

Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:33 PM

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

 

Peter,

 

I fear we have perhaps stepped into a veritable mine field

with this.

 

I've just done a quick experiment with a couple of Word's

Headings.  DBT seems to ignore Bold and Italics, not just

for the entire heading, but for individual words selected

and changed "for emphasis", such is the second line of the

attached.

 

George. 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter

Sullivan

Sent: 09 May 2006 17:24

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

 

George,

 

I haven't gone back to visit David's file since receiving

some extra information from him this morning.

 

But what you propose does make some sense as a possible

source of the trouble.

 

The goal of DBT's importer is to indicate emphasis, not to

show typographical convention.

 

Consider the case of a level-two heading style in Word,

where text set in the style is automatically italicized.

The italics should not normally be shown in braille (at

least not per the rules with which I'm most familiar)

because the italics are a typographical convention, not an

indication of emphasis.  Instead, the braille should show

un-emphasized text set as a level-two heading.

 

But further consider that the user wants to italicize text

within the line

-- to indicate a word or two that are particularly

emphasized within the heading.  The print convention for

this is to revert the emphasized words to the non-italicized

form.  DBT attempts to indicate the emphasis then by looking

for places where the text is in a typographical form

distinct from what is defined for the paragraph style in

which it is defined.

 

All of which is to say that the code is attempting to be be

pretty "smart"

in cases that we considered during the design phase of the

Word importer; and it may simply be getting tripped up on

itself when it encounters the case that David brought to our

attention.

 

- Peter

 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George

Bell

Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:15 PM

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

 

Hi David and Peter,

 

This appears to be one of those nasty, nasty Wordisms that

has driven us bonkers for ages.

 

If you look very closely at the Bold version of the file,

you will see that ONLY the letter is italicised.

 

 

 

Now highlight (A) and click on the Italic Icon.

 

 

 

Note how the A is no longer Italicised.

 

I could be wrong, but in removing the Italics and Bold (per

David's non-bold file), I suspect what Word is actually

doing, is to put an "Invert Character Attribute" code in

(which perhaps DBT is not picking up), rather than

"removing" the attribute itself.

 

Then again, as the colloquialism goes, I could be "away with

the fairies".

 

George.

 

________________________________

 

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David

Spybey

Sent: 09 May 2006 16:06

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Strange file containing brackets

 

 

 

 

Peter

 

Most of the material that I prepare starts off as a print

file for our partially sighted pupils and it is usually in

large print and bold. I sometimes forget unbold the whole

document before translating it hence the bold version of the

file I got the strange results with. As a rule I would

expect all the bold and other unnecessary emphasis marking

to be removed as it is not helpful to the Braille reader.

 

In the file I sent I can see that the capital A is in

italics but I would still not expect to get what is

happening but rather

 

7.,a7

 

Whilst I might prefer it to have no italic sign at all I

would not expect DBT to understand my preference if I am

perverse enough to ask it to translate a file that I have

provided with italics in it!

 

There is clearly something peculiar about the files I sent

but I cannot see what it is. 

 

David Spybey

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter

Sullivan

Sent: 08 May 2006 19:36

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in

documents

 

David,

 

Thanks for sending the .tex files (off-list).  As you

mentioned, these

 

aren't really necessary to my analysis, because the problem

shows up also

 

(or perhaps exclusively) when importing from Word.

 

I'm now puzzled about what you want in the translation in

this case.  You

 

mention that you would expect (A) to be: 7;,a7

 

Does that mean that you expect emphasis markings to be

ignored in this case?

 

- Peter 

 

-----Original Message-----

 

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

 

Behalf Of David Spybey

 

Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:34 AM

 

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in

documents

 

Peter

 

The file that caused the problem is attached. However I need

to amend what I

 

have said slightly.

 

I used Word2Tex, as I usually do, to change the file into a

.tex file that

 

SN will read. I did not check the SN file before using DBT

and got the

 

result I mentioned. Looking more closely at the WORD

original the A was

 

italic not the closing bracket. In SN this came out as the

opening bracket

 

in text the A and the closing bracket in Math and hence the

result I got in

 

DBT. I should have spotted this fact so apologies for giving

a false

 

impression of the problem.

 

I was going into SN because of all the mathematics that was

in the WORD file

 

in MathType and the route I follow gets that into reasonable

braille

 

mathematics. However, if you ignore the mathematics issues

and just got

 

straight into DBT from the files I have attached the The

results of going

 

straight into DBT 

 

The version with (A) in bold gives 

 

7..,a.'.17.'

 

And the version witgh (A) in non bold gives 

 

.7.,a.17.'

 

Whereas I would expect (A) to be

 

7;,a7

 

as happens in other files. So there must be something rather

peculiar about

 

the two WORD files that I have attached. I have looked at

them but cannot

 

see what would cause such peculiar results.

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

 

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

 

Behalf Of Peter Sullivan

 

Sent: 04 May 2006 16:56

 

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in

documents

 

David,

 

Do you have a sample file in the format from which you

started (e.g. Word,

 

Scientific Notebook, text, or HTML)?

 

- Peter 

 

-----Original Message-----

 

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

 

Behalf Of David Spybey

 

Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 3:02 AM

 

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in

documents

 

Peter

 

It is strange how mistakes show up errors!

 

I have just had

 

(A)

 

translated as

 

7,a>

 

rather than 7,a7

 

I could not understand why until I realised that the closing

bracket was in

 

italics by mistake. However I am not sure why DBT translated

this as it did.

 

David Spybey

 

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* * * <<Brackets file.doc>> <<Brackets file non bold.doc>> 

 

 

 

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