[duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code

  • From: "Joanmarie Diggs" <joanmarie.diggs@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:08:23 -0400

You know, I just tossed JAWS at it and while it visually looks like a degree
symbol, JAWS speaks it as a left paren.  Then I put in a degree symbol,
which JAWS speaks correctly. According to JAWS the original symbol is 53 in
hex, whereas the degree symbol is B0. 

Joanie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:46 AM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code
> 
> David,
> 
> Perhaps Rebecca's proposed approach will work better for you.
> 
> But, even if so, I'd like to have a closer look at the 
> problem with the file
> you sent.  When I import it to DBT, the degree sign is coming 
> in as a left
> parenthesis.  Is this what you find?
> 
> - Peter 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of David Spybey
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:22 AM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code
> 
> In Word writing degrees centigrade with the degrees sign is 
> not simple. A
> symbol for the degrees sign has to be imported from symbols 
> (though there
> may be another way that I do not use). DBT does not deal with this
> correctly, eg word file attached. Is there another version of 
> the degrees
> sign which DBTR does work with?
> 
>  
> 
> David Spybey
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of George Bell
> Sent: 09 May 2006 19:39
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> 
>  
> 
> I'm on your side here, Peter.  SR1 will come soon enough.
> 
>  
> 
> George.
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
> 
> Sullivan
> 
> Sent: 09 May 2006 17:36
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> 
>  
> 
> George,
> 
>  
> 
> I will look into this.
> 
>  
> 
> But it is increasingly unlikely that anything will be done
> 
> about it before the release of DBT 10.6.  We are already
> 
> about a month behind our original schedule, there are about
> 
> a year's worth of important fixes already in the software,
> 
> and customers waiting for these.
> 
>  
> 
> - Peter 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George
> 
> Bell
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:33 PM
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> 
>  
> 
> Peter,
> 
>  
> 
> I fear we have perhaps stepped into a veritable mine field
> 
> with this.
> 
>  
> 
> I've just done a quick experiment with a couple of Word's
> 
> Headings.  DBT seems to ignore Bold and Italics, not just
> 
> for the entire heading, but for individual words selected
> 
> and changed "for emphasis", such is the second line of the
> 
> attached.
> 
>  
> 
> George. 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
> 
> Sullivan
> 
> Sent: 09 May 2006 17:24
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> 
>  
> 
> George,
> 
>  
> 
> I haven't gone back to visit David's file since receiving
> 
> some extra information from him this morning.
> 
>  
> 
> But what you propose does make some sense as a possible
> 
> source of the trouble.
> 
>  
> 
> The goal of DBT's importer is to indicate emphasis, not to
> 
> show typographical convention.
> 
>  
> 
> Consider the case of a level-two heading style in Word,
> 
> where text set in the style is automatically italicized.
> 
> The italics should not normally be shown in braille (at
> 
> least not per the rules with which I'm most familiar)
> 
> because the italics are a typographical convention, not an
> 
> indication of emphasis.  Instead, the braille should show
> 
> un-emphasized text set as a level-two heading.
> 
>  
> 
> But further consider that the user wants to italicize text
> 
> within the line
> 
> -- to indicate a word or two that are particularly
> 
> emphasized within the heading.  The print convention for
> 
> this is to revert the emphasized words to the non-italicized
> 
> form.  DBT attempts to indicate the emphasis then by looking
> 
> for places where the text is in a typographical form
> 
> distinct from what is defined for the paragraph style in
> 
> which it is defined.
> 
>  
> 
> All of which is to say that the code is attempting to be be
> 
> pretty "smart"
> 
> in cases that we considered during the design phase of the
> 
> Word importer; and it may simply be getting tripped up on
> 
> itself when it encounters the case that David brought to our
> 
> attention.
> 
>  
> 
> - Peter
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George
> 
> Bell
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:15 PM
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
> 
>  
> 
> Hi David and Peter,
> 
>  
> 
> This appears to be one of those nasty, nasty Wordisms that
> 
> has driven us bonkers for ages.
> 
>  
> 
> If you look very closely at the Bold version of the file,
> 
> you will see that ONLY the letter is italicised.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Now highlight (A) and click on the Italic Icon.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Note how the A is no longer Italicised.
> 
>  
> 
> I could be wrong, but in removing the Italics and Bold (per
> 
> David's non-bold file), I suspect what Word is actually
> 
> doing, is to put an "Invert Character Attribute" code in
> 
> (which perhaps DBT is not picking up), rather than
> 
> "removing" the attribute itself.
> 
>  
> 
> Then again, as the colloquialism goes, I could be "away with
> 
> the fairies".
> 
>  
> 
> George.
> 
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> 
>  
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David
> 
> Spybey
> 
> Sent: 09 May 2006 16:06
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Strange file containing brackets
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
>  
> 
> Most of the material that I prepare starts off as a print
> 
> file for our partially sighted pupils and it is usually in
> 
> large print and bold. I sometimes forget unbold the whole
> 
> document before translating it hence the bold version of the
> 
> file I got the strange results with. As a rule I would
> 
> expect all the bold and other unnecessary emphasis marking
> 
> to be removed as it is not helpful to the Braille reader.
> 
>  
> 
> In the file I sent I can see that the capital A is in
> 
> italics but I would still not expect to get what is
> 
> happening but rather
> 
>  
> 
> 7.,a7
> 
>  
> 
> Whilst I might prefer it to have no italic sign at all I
> 
> would not expect DBT to understand my preference if I am
> 
> perverse enough to ask it to translate a file that I have
> 
> provided with italics in it!
> 
>  
> 
> There is clearly something peculiar about the files I sent
> 
> but I cannot see what it is. 
> 
>  
> 
> David Spybey
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
> 
> Sullivan
> 
> Sent: 08 May 2006 19:36
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> David,
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks for sending the .tex files (off-list).  As you
> 
> mentioned, these
> 
>  
> 
> aren't really necessary to my analysis, because the problem
> 
> shows up also
> 
>  
> 
> (or perhaps exclusively) when importing from Word.
> 
>  
> 
> I'm now puzzled about what you want in the translation in
> 
> this case.  You
> 
>  
> 
> mention that you would expect (A) to be: 7;,a7
> 
>  
> 
> Does that mean that you expect emphasis markings to be
> 
> ignored in this case?
> 
>  
> 
> - Peter 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>  
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> 
>  
> 
> Behalf Of David Spybey
> 
>  
> 
> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:34 AM
> 
>  
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
>  
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
>  
> 
> The file that caused the problem is attached. However I need
> 
> to amend what I
> 
>  
> 
> have said slightly.
> 
>  
> 
> I used Word2Tex, as I usually do, to change the file into a
> 
> .tex file that
> 
>  
> 
> SN will read. I did not check the SN file before using DBT
> 
> and got the
> 
>  
> 
> result I mentioned. Looking more closely at the WORD
> 
> original the A was
> 
>  
> 
> italic not the closing bracket. In SN this came out as the
> 
> opening bracket
> 
>  
> 
> in text the A and the closing bracket in Math and hence the
> 
> result I got in
> 
>  
> 
> DBT. I should have spotted this fact so apologies for giving
> 
> a false
> 
>  
> 
> impression of the problem.
> 
>  
> 
> I was going into SN because of all the mathematics that was
> 
> in the WORD file
> 
>  
> 
> in MathType and the route I follow gets that into reasonable
> 
> braille
> 
>  
> 
> mathematics. However, if you ignore the mathematics issues
> 
> and just got
> 
>  
> 
> straight into DBT from the files I have attached the The
> 
> results of going
> 
>  
> 
> straight into DBT 
> 
>  
> 
> The version with (A) in bold gives 
> 
>  
> 
> 7..,a.'.17.'
> 
>  
> 
> And the version witgh (A) in non bold gives 
> 
>  
> 
> .7.,a.17.'
> 
>  
> 
> Whereas I would expect (A) to be
> 
>  
> 
> 7;,a7
> 
>  
> 
> as happens in other files. So there must be something rather
> 
> peculiar about
> 
>  
> 
> the two WORD files that I have attached. I have looked at
> 
> them but cannot
> 
>  
> 
> see what would cause such peculiar results.
> 
>  
> 
> David
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>  
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> 
>  
> 
> Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> 
>  
> 
> Sent: 04 May 2006 16:56
> 
>  
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
>  
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> David,
> 
>  
> 
> Do you have a sample file in the format from which you
> 
> started (e.g. Word,
> 
>  
> 
> Scientific Notebook, text, or HTML)?
> 
>  
> 
> - Peter 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>  
> 
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> 
>  
> 
> Behalf Of David Spybey
> 
>  
> 
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 3:02 AM
> 
>  
> 
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
>  
> 
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
> 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
>  
> 
> It is strange how mistakes show up errors!
> 
>  
> 
> I have just had
> 
>  
> 
> (A)
> 
>  
> 
> translated as
> 
>  
> 
> 7,a>
> 
>  
> 
> rather than 7,a7
> 
>  
> 
> I could not understand why until I realised that the closing
> 
> bracket was in
> 
>  
> 
> italics by mistake. However I am not sure why DBT translated
> 
> this as it did.
> 
>  
> 
> David Spybey
> 
>  
> 
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> * * * <<Brackets file.doc>> <<Brackets file non bold.doc>> 
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