atw: Re: Change of collective noun use and other changes - why? Just because [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
- From: Ros Byrne <ros.byrne@xxxxxxx>
- To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:42:39 +1100
Ouch!
Howard and Michelle - I fear that ridicule is likely to be counter-productive.
(It's a long story about communication climate, communication that is perceived
is being 'superior' rather than equal etc).
Glad to see you're also recommending less-risky ways to promote language
behaviors we want to encourage.
Ros
__
On 19/03/2012, at 1:55 PM, Howard Silcock wrote:
> Hi Michelle
> I share your dislike of 'below' as an adjective, but I have to admit that
> it's a bit strange that 'above' is accepted in the parallel usage - for
> example, 'the above paragraph' is OK but 'the below paragraph' is frowned on.
> I think we're going to have to give up and ride in the direction the horse is
> going pretty soon.
>
> On your general point about language lovers and linguistic change, my advice
> to language-lovers is to be proactive and point out - even ridicule - the
> worst examples and to write to dictionary-compilers and make your views
> known. After all, we are professional language-users. We can't stop change
> but we can point out the worst abuses and it can have an effect.
>
> Howard
>
>
> On 19 March 2012 12:55, Michelle Hallett <michelle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Michael,
>
> I think this is an interesting explanation and may well explain why people
> are using 'below' as an adjective rather than an adverb (after all, there is
> no verb in the sentence). But it doesn't explain the wholesale confusion
> between possessive and plural by well educated professional native English
> speakers. I don't mind the language changing. Additions like WTF and ROFL
> amuse me. But I don't like the idea that language might be changing because
> people are lazy in its use
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
> On 19/03/2012, at 11:13 AM, Michael Lewis <michael.lewis@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Frequently, yes - but "most frequently"? Hardly - unless by "don't know" you
>> mean "don't know it the way I do". Generations ago, well educated people
>> used expressions like "methinks he is a dastard knave" and "it meseems that
>> the apocalypse is nigh". The vocabulary and the grammar have changed, but
>> not because of non-native speakers.
>>
>> There's an underlying point that is valid, though. Native speakers are like
>> non-native speakers in that they over-regularise. That's why most nouns
>> finish up taking the normal -s (or -es) in the plural, instead of the
>> earlier forms like "sistren" (though we still retain "brethren" in special
>> contexts, and "children" is still more common than "childs").
>>
>> We can see this happening with young children. They use the correct form
>> "men" at first, then learn the rule about adding "-s" and change to "mans"
>> for a while, then they re-learn "men" as an exception to the general rule.
>> Much language change is simply the fading away of exceptions, especially the
>> rare ones - the verb "be" retains its odd inflexions because we all use it
>> too often to get a chance to forget the specifics, but "leaped" has
>> superseded "leapt" in most cases.
>>
>> - Michael
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2012 10:26, <Peter.Martin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Michelle:
>>
>> Language is most frequently changed by those who don't know the language
>> rather than those "who really care about it".
>>
>
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