[access-uk] Re: re building a Web Site

  • From: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:02:18 +0100

Christopher Hallsworth wrote:
> Indeed, Visual Web Developer Express does default to generating markup
> for Internet Explorer, but this can be changed through the powerful
> options dialogue, found from within the tools menu of the IDE.

You can set Visual Web Developer to validate to HTML 4.01 Strict, but it 
will still (for example) allow you to misuse tables for layout. There's 
even a Microsoft help topic encouraging people to do this:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dyxa0hhe(VS.80).aspx

And it will still allow you to use Internet Explorer-only ActiveX 
controls, since those validate too.

Conformance to HTML (let alone broader interoperability and conformance 
to accessibility standards like WCAG) involves a larger set of 
requirements than merely validating to HTML. And because people tend to 
use such tools in order to avoid learning HTML, they won't know that 
misusing tables in this way is a bad idea.

> Also, if you're saying that Word isn't designed for creating websites, then 
> why
> is there a help topic devoted to creating websites? 

I basically mean creating websites is not Word's purpose and didn't 
inform its overall original design, and it's not something (from what 
I've seen) that it does terribly well. Word was originally designed for 
making print documents. Unfortunately, its interface has informed the 
design of many web authoring tools too, even though WYSIWYG isn't an 
appropriate model for web design. So the difference between real web 
authoring tools and WYSIWYG word processors may seem blurred at times. 
I'm told Word documents can be used effectively as the part of content 
creation chain involving XML transformations to produce HTML documents, 
so long as you make careful use of Word styles rather than just 
willy-nilly formatting. But few ordinary authors seem to do that and 
Word's interface doesn't especially encourage it.

> Sounds like heavy advertising to me, but I might be missing something.

Just to be clear: I'm not advertising anything. In fact, I'm strongly 
recommending folks not spend any money on tools for making websites.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

> On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:54:54 +0100, "Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis"
> <bhawkeslewis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> said:
>> Microsoft Word isn't designed for website production full stop. Being 
>> able to save documents to pseudo-HTML isn't the same thing as being a 
>> website creation tool.
>>
>> If you do want to spend a few hundred bucks on some software, you could 
>> buy DreamWeaver.
>>
>> Generally, I'd invest money in hiring designers, programmers, and 
>> testers rather than buying programs, because there's almost always a 
>> free alternative that does what you need.
>>
>> Just so people understand, Microsoft FrontPage no longer exists, it's 
>> been retired. The Microsoft Visual Web Developer range has replaced 
>> FrontPage; it's not a rival product. The Express Edition is the free 
>> version. From what I've seen of it, Visual Web Developer still defaults 
>> to generating markup tailored for use with Internet Explorer, rather 
>> than for general web interoperability.
>>
>> You could also use NVU or Amaya, which are free and open source 
>> authoring tools:
>>
>> http://www.nvu.com/index.php
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
>>
>> I'd strongly recommend using an ordinary text editor or IDE (Integrated 
>> Development Environment) for marking up documents instead of /any/ of 
>> these tools. But in any case I would suggest learning HTML before 
>> attempting to produce a website with such quick-fix programs, so that 
>> you have some understanding of their idiosyncrasies. It helps you 
>> understand what's going on when somebody comes back and complains that 
>> (for example) the ActiveX control Visual Web Developer dumped into your 
>> page doesn't work in their Firefox web browser.
>>
>> But Alan was warned about professionals. <grin/>
>>
>> Note that if Alan's son's website is to be an actual online store where 
>> customers buy products and orders are tracked in a database, rather than 
>> just a promotional website, it will likely prove more cost-effective to 
>> hire someone to build and maintain the site, partly because of the 
>> complex security issues involved in taking payments and protecting user 
>> data. Another alternative might be to use a totally hosted but skinnable 
>> third-party solution like Shopify:
>>
>> http://shopify.com/
>>
>> --
>> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
>>
>> Christopher Hallsworth wrote:
>>> Just a pointer. If your son cannot afford the money for Microsoft
>>> FrontPage or Word, he can write web pages without knowing HTML by
>>> downloading the free Microsoft Visual Web Developer Express Edition.
>>> Visit http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express to find out more. Hope
>>> that helps.
>>> On Thu, 3 May 2007 15:51:56 +0100, "Ray's Home"
>>> <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> said:
>>>> Well, I hear the HTML that Front Page churns out isn't as bad as Word
>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> If your son does want to go the more techy route he could do worse
>>>> than look at a link which, I think, was posted here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.benjaminhawkeslewis.com/www/web-design/getting-started
>>>>
>>>> HTH.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From Ray
>>>> I can be contacted off-list at:
>>>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of George Bell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>
>>>> If your son can use something like Word for Windows, and
>>>> understands the basics of files and folders, then he should
>>>> find getting a web site up and running is a doddle with
>>>> something like Microsoft Front Page.
>>>>
>>>> Having had some seriously nasty quotes from so called
>>>> professionals, that's exactly what I did.  Take a look at
>>>> http://www.techno-vision.co.uk.  It's not brilliant, but it
>>>> needs to be accessible, simple, and not have me spending
>>>> hours pouring over HTML code.
>>>>
>>>> The "professionals" here will doubtless say that FrontPage's
>>>> HTML is rubbish and all sorts, but who sees that anyway - it
>>>> works, doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>> George.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of alan pollard
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 1:19 PM
>>>> To: access uk
>>>> Subject: [access-uk] re building a Web Site
>>>>
>>>> Hi List members,my Son has asked me to inquire through my
>>>> list memberships about alternatives ways re setting up a
>>>> Business Web Site, that is the Economics and the
>>>> practicality of building one from available downloadable
>>>> Software,as compared to getting it contracted out ,If anyone
>>>> has any imformation such as Sites to visit,or personal
>>>> experiences with building a Site,or any other imfo, they
>>>> could share with us,it would be much appreciatedThank you in
>>>> advance.Alan!.=20
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>>> Christopher Hallsworth
>>> E-mail: chrishallsworth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Skype name chrishallsworth7266
>>>
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> Christopher Hallsworth
> E-mail: chrishallsworth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Skype name chrishallsworth7266
> 
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