[tinwhiskers] Re: R: Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
- From: "Bob Landman" <rlandman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:42:14 -0400
Johnathan,
With respect to whiskers growing since RoHS, consider the SWATCH watch
adventure. I'm told that they had perfectly good solders (all containing lead,
Pb) to attach the vacuum shell around the crystal in their time-mechanism. They
switched to 99.5% tin 0.5% copper solder to satisfy RoHS --- no other reason!
Within six weeks, 5% of the time-mechanisms had failed (did not work, drained
each new battery they installed). They looked, and found that 30% of all their
time-mechanisms now had grown tin whiskers! We know this from a report that the
SWATCH lawyers sent to EU (and I have sent you that SWATCH report); we do not
know this from SWATCH, who has yet to say anything about this, as far as I've
seen.
Does this not provide one response (with public documents) to the question,
"Have whiskers have grown and caused failures after "no-lead RoHS" was enacted?"
Read http://www.hlinstruments.com/RoHS_articles/A-1018_Swatch.pdf (page 5)
They requested (and got) an exemption for their commercial watches!
I don't think we need to discuss Al Gore (or any other politican here in
America) to realize this EU law is flawed.
Bob
From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of jonathan vanderwall
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:19 AM
To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: R: Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
I don't agree with Gabriele. It's not big money, It's populist politics run
amok. For example, because of Al Gore's fundamental misunderstanding of the
alcohol problem we have now got laws requiring ethanol blends by such and such
dates, despite the fact that ethanol from corn was generally conceded two or
three years ago that using food crops to produce ethanol would cause a shortage
of food, which it has now done.
Since it sure looks to me as if the ban on PbSn solders means unreliable
electronic equipment, let's just find out how reliable the estimates of harm
from lead indeed are instead of abolishing lead because it can be poisonus.
Regards,
Jonathan
--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Gabriele Sala <salag@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Gabriele Sala <salag@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tinwhiskers] R: Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 5:29 PM
It could be true, but do not forget that evil is the so called"Business".RoHS
is not an human mission, but just a Business's son, or if preferred,just a
politician's childbirth.Here in the western Countries the electronic assembly
is a daily battleamong pours, trying to survive for a piece of bread or
avoiding to loose ownjob, and RoHS is not helping them but just facilitating
the victory of theso many multinational Goliaths when, unfortunately not more
Davids areavailable to challenge them (many small card assembly shops have
beenclosed)For sure I'll be
wrong, but that is all what I see around me.Best RegardsGabriele
Sala-----Messaggio originale-----Da:
tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Per
conto di Steve SmithInviato: venerdì 6 giugno 2008 22.04A:
tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: [tinwhiskers] Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead
Tinning SystemBob's remarks might as well apply to the silence that surrounds
thestigma of venereal disease. Those who have it don't speak of it. Itis thus
not widely known, continues to be spread, people die and yetno one knows what
is going 'round, because no one dares speak of itfor the shame of the publicity
of being infected with tin whiskers,errr.....I mean.....well, you get the
idea.NASA serves the role of the doctor-confidante, to whom people go
fordiagnosis, yet due to a required promise of confidentiality cannotreveal
enough
data that the plague can be seen at its actualmagnitude, and society organized
to take action.The difference is that the tin-whisker-plague has a known
agentspreading it: The willingness of people to "follow orders"; to complywith
a "directive", even if that directive emanates from ascientifically ignorant
self-proclaimed "authority" who does not evenrepresent a direct human
constituency.It takes courage for a company, far more than an individual, to
admitpublicly that they are having a tin-whisker problem, to takeresponsibility
for that problem, to implement solutions and make thispublicly known so others
can become informed and similarly takeeffective action. Yet, this is what must
happen, and companies are runby individuals.All that is necessary for the
triumph of evil is that good men donothing.Steve Smith> Some here have asked:
"have whiskers have grown
and caused failures> after "no-lead RoHS" was enacted?" > > Let me reverse
the question; why do you think the absence of lead> (RoHS) in tin plating has
stopped whisker> growth? > What would suggest to you that you draw that
conclusion? Has> passing that EU law changed the science? Has the> universe
complied with RoHS?> > I do not think so.> > NASA says that not all
whisker-induced failures can be identified.> Very few analysts correctly
identify> whisker-induced problems. A professional failure analysis can run>
between $300 and $3,000 per job. Almost no> broken commercial equipment is ever
put through any such analysis;> rather, the failed unit is junked or>
refurbished without any assignment of the fault. It is> characteristically only
equipment used in tasks of high> importance that gets any analytic
attention. And, sadly, only a> very few analysts are able to correctly
recognize> whisker induced problems! > Does commercial-grade equipment have
this problem? It is typically> only the military and space communities that>
carry out the analysis that is necessary to locate the source of> the damage.
And then, only a few of the folks> making these analyses are perceptive as to
the real cause. Not all> cases of whisker-induced failures are reported! > NASA
has logged, in 5 years, 3 to 5 reports a month of tin whisker> infestation that
required urgent help. Note> that only a very few have allowed NASA to document
their problems> in detail or share results publicly. Fear of> lost sales,
warranty claims, punitive damages, injuries,> embarrassment and no desire to
share solutions to> problems with competitors. > For the last five years or so,
NASA
is logging from three to five> calls a month from folks who have spoken with>
them about tin-whisker infestations at their companies ?> infestations so bad
that urgent attention was needed and> eventually produced a correct
identification, often with our help ?> and then these folks have requested>
confidentiality. To a good approximation, NO ONE has allowed NASA> to log their
problem(s) in an explicit manner.> Their reasons are clear enough: these
include fear that sales will> drop, and fear of a run of warranty claims and>
even claims for damages and injuries, and fear of embarrassment at> being
caught in bad practices. So, to protect> themselves, they forbid their problem
from being listed. Sometimes,> the argument is that: "OK, now we have learned>
about this; darned if we will share this learning with our> competitors: let
them figure out
why this stuff is> failing!> It is the "problem of the commons".> There is the
story of a room filled with people, and also a dead> stinking horse. Each
person has a personal> reason for silence, and so no one mentions the rotting
carcass.> Thus, the group does not work together to improve> the living
conditions, and soon all succumb to the poisonous gases andcorruption.> NASA
estimate of the problem> ?The hundreds of cases we have documented scale to
roughly a few> million to a few hundred million cases of> whiskering problems
over the last fifty years --- this seems about> right to me?, so says Dr.
Henning Leidecker at> NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. He suspects that
about 3% to> 30% of electronics systems that are using pure> tin plating are
growing whiskers, and that about 0.5% to 5% of the> total are having shorts
caused by
these> whiskers, and that about 0.005% to 0.5% of the total are having the>
cause of these shorts correctly identified,> and then about 0.000,01% to 0.01%
of the total are being publicly> named. He goes on to say that the hundreds of>
cases they have documented scale to roughly a few million to a few> hundred
million cases of whiskering problems> over the last fifty years; this seems
about right to him. > But the public perception is that there are only a few
cases, and> that these have happened "to other folks".> Bob Landman> H&L
Instruments,LLC> > From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gabriele Sala> Sent:
Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:42 PM> To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject:
[tinwhiskers] R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System> I have never
seen a Mom publicize when her kids have hair infested> with lice (louses ?
pidocchi ? ), Who have> them, they keep them as a secret !!! L. > > NASA has
nothing to loose by saying the true. Small Companies could> loose the little
remaining job ( after> Globalization plus RoHS) if they tell the true about
whiskers> growing on their electronic assemblies.> > Best Regards> > Gabriele
Sala> > > -----Messaggio originale-----> Da:
tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Per
conto di Niki Steenkamp> Inviato: mercoledì 4 giugno 2008 10.18> A:
tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Oggetto: [tinwhiskers] Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning
System> > Hi,> > I have only been following this list for a month or so, but
I was> wondering if there has been any
tin-whisker> failure documented that can be attributed to RoHS. All the NASA>
and other tin-whisker failure reports I have seen> are from the pre-RoHS era
(which goes to show that even without> RoHS we had problems!). Most ?modern?
papers> demonstrate whisker growth in lab environments. Although all of> this
is relevant and should at the very least> blink red warning lights in our
minds, I do not think anybody will> really sit up and take notice until things>
start failing AND it can be proven that it is due to RoHS. It is> sad, but
that is how humans work. And with so> many Pb-free systems in the field by
now, failures should start> occurring. Maybe we should focus not on waiting>
until the first airplane falls form the sky, but rather look for> tin-whisker
related problems in everyday> electronics of which there are many more potential
candidates. > Build up a solid database of verifyable RoHS> failures and we
will have undeniable proof. I was recently in a> SMD manufacturing seminar
where a fairly well> respected international expert stated that he does not
believe tin> whiskers are a reality in real life and that> they occur only in
labs. Scary. > > Regards,> Niki Steenkamp > > From:
tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of John Lau Hon-Shing> Sent: 04 June 2008 01:35 AM> To:
Engelmaier@xxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: ACE
Develops Lead Tinning System> > Dear Werner:> > As I said I totally agreed
with you that it is not ACE's> fault/problem. When I was at Agilent, we also
did> re-balling to replace the SAC balls to SnPb balls. Even all of
our> products are out of the scope of EU RoHS,> however, all the DRAM (in
PBGA) already concerted to lead-free and> our products need more than 20 years
of lives.> > By the way, I just told Michelle this morning that I cannot go
to> London this time and asked her to give all my> registrants to you. Please
talk to her!> > Thanks & Best Wishes!> > John H. Lau> Microsystems, Modules &
Components Laboratory> Institute of Microelectronics (IME) > 11 Science Park
Road> Singapore Science Park II> Singapore 117685> TEL:(65)6770-5424;
lauhs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > From: Engelmaier@xxxxxxx
[mailto:Engelmaier@xxxxxxx] > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 07:16 AM> To: John
Lau Hon-Shing; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [tinwhiskers] Re: ACE
Develops Lead Tinning System>
Hi John,> In your world?that is mass-produced consumer products, the>
pragmatic view has to be that the Pb-ban is a fact of> life. And with these
products it is a fact of life.> But what do I tell a client with a 24-layer
250-mil thick PCB with> 4 power- and ground-layers who has to put BGAs> on it.
> They do not fall under RoHS.> They do not sell in the EU, China, Japan,
Korea, etc.> What I tell them is to re-ball to Sn37 AND use vapor phase?works
like acharm.> That is why people develop these systems to re-coat, re-ball,
etc.,> because there is a market for it, that cannot> be met with Pb-free
solders [they do not want to go the Bi- or In-route].> See you in London at
NEW.> Werner> Future workshops:> Reliability Issues with Lead-Free Soldering
Processes, June 17, London> Interconnect Failures and Design for Reliability
for PCB PTHs, June 17,London> Pb-Free Soldering Processes?Survival, Quality,
Reliability, August 18,Orlando> Reliability Issues with Lead-Free Soldering
Processes, September 22,Schaumburg> Failure Mode and Root Cause Analyses
Reliability (Fatigue, Brittle> Fracture, ENIG), September 22, Schaumburg>
**************> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
TylerFlorence"on AOL
Food.>(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)>
NOTE: If you are not the intended recipient of this communication,> please
notify the sender and delete it. As it> may contain confidential or official
information, do not retain it> or disclose the contents to any person as it>
may be an offence under the Official Secrets Act. Thank You.> E-mail Disclaimer>
http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm> -- Best regards,Steve Smith
<steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> www.woodrestoration.com
www.fiveyearclear.comwww.smithandcompany.org, and especially
www.smithandcompany.org/mwp/http://www.lignu.com/lignu/tech_info/tech_info.php
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