[tinwhiskers] Re: R: Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
- From: jonathan vanderwall <jvanderwall1941@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:19:23 -0700 (PDT)
I don't agree with Gabriele. It's not big money, It's populist politics run
amok. For example, because of Al Gore's fundamental misunderstanding of the
alcohol problem we have now got laws requiring ethanol blends by such and such
dates, despite the fact that ethanol from corn was generally conceded two or
three years ago that using food crops to produce ethanol would cause a shortage
of food, which it has now done.
Since it sure looks to me as if the ban on PbSn solders means unreliable
electronic equipment, let's just find out how reliable the estimates of harm
from lead indeed are instead of abolishing lead because it can be poisonus.
Regards,
Jonathan
--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Gabriele Sala <salag@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Gabriele Sala <salag@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tinwhiskers] R: Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 5:29 PM
It could be true, but do not forget that evil is the so called
"Business".
RoHS is not an human mission, but just a Business's son, or if preferred,
just a politician's childbirth.
Here in the western Countries the electronic assembly is a daily battle
among pours, trying to survive for a piece of bread or avoiding to loose own
job, and RoHS is not helping them but just facilitating the victory of the
so many multinational Goliaths when, unfortunately not more Davids are
available to challenge them (many small card assembly shops have been
closed)
For sure I'll be wrong, but that is all what I see around me.
Best Regards
Gabriele Sala
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Per conto di Steve Smith
Inviato: venerdì 6 giugno 2008 22.04
A: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Oggetto: [tinwhiskers] Re: R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
Bob's remarks might as well apply to the silence that surrounds the
stigma of venereal disease. Those who have it don't speak of it. It
is thus not widely known, continues to be spread, people die and yet
no one knows what is going 'round, because no one dares speak of it
for the shame of the publicity of being infected with tin whiskers,
errr.....I mean.....well, you get the idea.
NASA serves the role of the doctor-confidante, to whom people go for
diagnosis, yet due to a required promise of confidentiality cannot
reveal enough data that the plague can be seen at its actual
magnitude, and society organized to take action.
The difference is that the tin-whisker-plague has a known agent
spreading it: The willingness of people to "follow orders"; to comply
with a "directive", even if that directive emanates from a
scientifically ignorant self-proclaimed "authority" who does not even
represent a direct human constituency.
It takes courage for a company, far more than an individual, to admit
publicly that they are having a tin-whisker problem, to take
responsibility for that problem, to implement solutions and make this
publicly known so others can become informed and similarly take
effective action. Yet, this is what must happen, and companies are run
by individuals.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing.
Steve Smith
> Some here have asked: "have whiskers have grown and caused failures
> after "no-lead RoHS" was enacted?"
>
> Let me reverse the question; why do you think the absence of lead
> (RoHS) in tin plating has stopped whisker
> growth?
> What would suggest to you that you draw that conclusion? Has
> passing that EU law changed the science? Has the
> universe complied with RoHS?
>
> I do not think so.
>
> NASA says that not all whisker-induced failures can be identified.
> Very few analysts correctly identify
> whisker-induced problems. A professional failure analysis can run
> between $300 and $3,000 per job. Almost no
> broken commercial equipment is ever put through any such analysis;
> rather, the failed unit is junked or
> refurbished without any assignment of the fault. It is
> characteristically only equipment used in tasks of high
> importance that gets any analytic attention. And, sadly, only a
> very few analysts are able to correctly recognize
> whisker induced problems!
> Does commercial-grade equipment have this problem? It is typically
> only the military and space communities that
> carry out the analysis that is necessary to locate the source of
> the damage. And then, only a few of the folks
> making these analyses are perceptive as to the real cause. Not all
> cases of whisker-induced failures are reported!
> NASA has logged, in 5 years, 3 to 5 reports a month of tin whisker
> infestation that required urgent help. Note
> that only a very few have allowed NASA to document their problems
> in detail or share results publicly. Fear of
> lost sales, warranty claims, punitive damages, injuries,
> embarrassment and no desire to share solutions to
> problems with competitors.
> For the last five years or so, NASA is logging from three to five
> calls a month from folks who have spoken with
> them about tin-whisker infestations at their companies –
> infestations so bad that urgent attention was needed and
> eventually produced a correct identification, often with our help –
> and then these folks have requested
> confidentiality. To a good approximation, NO ONE has allowed NASA
> to log their problem(s) in an explicit manner.
> Their reasons are clear enough: these include fear that sales will
> drop, and fear of a run of warranty claims and
> even claims for damages and injuries, and fear of embarrassment at
> being caught in bad practices. So, to protect
> themselves, they forbid their problem from being listed. Sometimes,
> the argument is that: "OK, now we have learned
> about this; darned if we will share this learning with our
> competitors: let them figure out why this stuff is
> failing!
> It is the "problem of the commons".
> There is the story of a room filled with people, and also a dead
> stinking horse. Each person has a personal
> reason for silence, and so no one mentions the rotting carcass.
> Thus, the group does not work together to improve
> the living conditions, and soon all succumb to the poisonous gases and
corruption.
> NASA estimate of the problem
> “The hundreds of cases we have documented scale to roughly a few
> million to a few hundred million cases of
> whiskering problems over the last fifty years --- this seems about
> right to me”, so says Dr. Henning Leidecker at
> NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. He suspects that about 3% to
> 30% of electronics systems that are using pure
> tin plating are growing whiskers, and that about 0.5% to 5% of the
> total are having shorts caused by these
> whiskers, and that about 0.005% to 0.5% of the total are having the
> cause of these shorts correctly identified,
> and then about 0.000,01% to 0.01% of the total are being publicly
> named. He goes on to say that the hundreds of
> cases they have documented scale to roughly a few million to a few
> hundred million cases of whiskering problems
> over the last fifty years; this seems about right to him.
> But the public perception is that there are only a few cases, and
> that these have happened "to other folks".
> Bob Landman
> H&L Instruments,LLC
>
> From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gabriele Sala
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:42 PM
> To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [tinwhiskers] R: Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
> I have never seen a Mom publicize when her kids have hair infested
> with lice (louses ? pidocchi ? ), Who have
> them, they keep them as a secret !!! L.
>
> NASA has nothing to loose by saying the true. Small Companies could
> loose the little remaining job ( after
> Globalization plus RoHS) if they tell the true about whiskers
> growing on their electronic assemblies.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Gabriele Sala
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Per conto di Niki Steenkamp
> Inviato: mercoledì 4 giugno 2008 10.18
> A: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Oggetto: [tinwhiskers] Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
>
> Hi,
>
> I have only been following this list for a month or so, but I was
> wondering if there has been any tin-whisker
> failure documented that can be attributed to RoHS. All the NASA
> and other tin-whisker failure reports I have seen
> are from the pre-RoHS era (which goes to show that even without
> RoHS we had problems!). Most “modern” papers
> demonstrate whisker growth in lab environments. Although all of
> this is relevant and should at the very least
> blink red warning lights in our minds, I do not think anybody will
> really sit up and take notice until things
> start failing AND it can be proven that it is due to RoHS. It is
> sad, but that is how humans work. And with so
> many Pb-free systems in the field by now, failures should start
> occurring. Maybe we should focus not on waiting
> until the first airplane falls form the sky, but rather look for
> tin-whisker related problems in everyday
> electronics of which there are many more potential candidates.
> Build up a solid database of verifyable RoHS
> failures and we will have undeniable proof. I was recently in a
> SMD manufacturing seminar where a fairly well
> respected international expert stated that he does not believe tin
> whiskers are a reality in real life and that
> they occur only in labs. Scary.
>
> Regards,
> Niki Steenkamp
>
> From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Lau Hon-Shing
> Sent: 04 June 2008 01:35 AM
> To: Engelmaier@xxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
>
> Dear Werner:
>
> As I said I totally agreed with you that it is not ACE's
> fault/problem. When I was at Agilent, we also did
> re-balling to replace the SAC balls to SnPb balls. Even all of our
> products are out of the scope of EU RoHS,
> however, all the DRAM (in PBGA) already concerted to lead-free and
> our products need more than 20 years of lives.
>
> By the way, I just told Michelle this morning that I cannot go to
> London this time and asked her to give all my
> registrants to you. Please talk to her!
>
> Thanks & Best Wishes!
>
> John H. Lau
> Microsystems, Modules & Components Laboratory
> Institute of Microelectronics (IME)
> 11 Science Park Road
> Singapore Science Park II
> Singapore 117685
> TEL:(65)6770-5424; lauhs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
> From: Engelmaier@xxxxxxx [mailto:Engelmaier@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 07:16 AM
> To: John Lau Hon-Shing; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [tinwhiskers] Re: ACE Develops Lead Tinning System
> Hi John,
> In your world—that is mass-produced consumer products, the
> pragmatic view has to be that the Pb-ban is a fact of
> life. And with these products it is a fact of life.
> But what do I tell a client with a 24-layer 250-mil thick PCB with
> 4 power- and ground-layers who has to put BGAs
> on it.
> They do not fall under RoHS.
> They do not sell in the EU, China, Japan, Korea, etc.
> What I tell them is to re-ball to Sn37 AND use vapor phase—works like a
charm.
> That is why people develop these systems to re-coat, re-ball, etc.,
> because there is a market for it, that cannot
> be met with Pb-free solders [they do not want to go the Bi- or In-route].
> See you in London at NEW.
> Werner
> Future workshops:
> Reliability Issues with Lead-Free Soldering Processes, June 17, London
> Interconnect Failures and Design for Reliability for PCB PTHs, June 17,
London
> Pb-Free Soldering Processes—Survival, Quality, Reliability, August 18,
Orlando
> Reliability Issues with Lead-Free Soldering Processes, September 22,
Schaumburg
> Failure Mode and Root Cause Analyses Reliability (Fatigue, Brittle
> Fracture, ENIG), September 22, Schaumburg
> **************
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--
Best regards,
Steve Smith <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
www.woodrestoration.com www.fiveyearclear.com
www.smithandcompany.org, and especially www.smithandcompany.org/mwp/
http://www.lignu.com/lignu/tech_info/tech_info.php
www.consultingscientist.us
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