[SI-LIST] Re: si-list Digest V17 #165
- From: "Steve Sandler" <ssandler1@xxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:46:13 -0700
My last post on this subject. The Laplace tells us the role of Q in the
step response and we can see the impact in simulation. One of the
interesting aspects of the response is that if a single current pulse is
applied, with a width equal to the damped resonant half period the voltage
excursion is significantly larger when the current pulse returns to zero
that when it is initially applied.
The Q also plays a significant role in the overdamped case, but generally
speaking, we don't see overdamped PDN's, at least I don't.
The Laplace and the single pulse simulations can be downloaded as a single
PNG image here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6gm04z0dgygyq2/PDN%20transient.png?dl=0
This is from my EDICON 2017 tutorial.
-----Original Message-----
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager [mailto:ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 10:09 PM
To: si-list digest users <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: si-list Digest V17 #165
si-list Digest Sat, 29 Jul 2017 Volume: 17 Issue: 165
In This Issue:
#1: From: Abe Riazi <riaziabe@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Plane impedence and Target impedence
#2: From: "xiaoguang.wang" <xiaoguang.wang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Seasim - port definition for s4p
files
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Msg: #1 in digest
From: Abe Riazi <riaziabe@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 10:57:57 -0700
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Plane impedence and Target impedence
Hi Sanjeev,
I agree that such system level simulations offer a more accurate approach
for determining PDN noise and resonant peaks, as compared to use of
mathematical formulae.
Of course, the equations stated by Larry furnish useful insight and a quick
method for computing the Bandini Mountain frequency and impedance values,
provided that the on-die capacitance (C) and the bump loop inductance (L)
are accurately known.
Thanks and with kind regards,
Abe
On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Sanjeev Gupta <
sanjeev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
transient PDN noise simulation either using IBIS model(SSN aware) or
using SPICE IO models along with extracted PDN models
(die+package+PCB) running using PRBS15 pattern for a very long
duration simulation time can surely capture potential 75MHz PDN noise
issues, if any..
Don't be afraid of running long hours simulations using SPICE setup.
SPICE setup can further be optimized using current mirror methods to
reduce simulation time.. :)
Thanks
Sanjeev
On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Larry Smith <larry.smith@
pdnpowerintegrity.com> wrote:
Abe - yes, there is a simple formula for the Bandini Mountain Frequency.
The major PDN impedance peak is at f0 = 1/(2*pi*sqrt(LC)). C is the
on-die capacitance and L is the bump loop inductance. The bump loop
inductance is the inductance seen looking out through the package
bumps to the mounted board capacitors.
There is an equally useful formula for the characteristic impedance of
Bandini Mountain. It is Z0 = sqrt(L/C). The PDN voltage droop from a
fast step current is found from Z0. V_step_droop = Z0 * I_step.
This is the PDN step response.
These are two of the most important formulas that characterize the
major PDN resonant peak.
regards,
Larry Smith
________________________________
From: Abe Riazi <riaziabe@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 6:58:27 PM
To: Larry Smith
Cc: si-list; ArunKumar.K@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; arunka97@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Plane impedence and Target impedence
Hi Larry,
Is there a mathematical formula for computing the "Bandini Mountain
Frequency", mentioned in your email?
Thank you in advance for your response.
Abe
On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Larry Smith <
larry.smith@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:larry.smith@
pdnpowerintegrity.com>> wrote:
Arun - the on-die capacitance determines the PDN impedance above a
certain frequency. This frequency is almost certainly below 800 MHz.
It is the frequency where the inductive board impedance crosses the
on-die capacitance impedance.
Most products have a frequency band where the PDN impedance exceeds
target impedance even after the on-die capacitance is considered. It
seems that for you, this starts at 75 MHz. Exceeding the target
impedance represents PDN risk but it is often too expensive to fix
it. Some of us call this PDN impedance peak "Bandini Mountain."
The important questions then become: How much transient current do we
have at Bandini Mountain frequency? How much PDN noise will the
circuits tolerate in this frequency band? These are often difficult
questions with no easy answers. For DDR, it will be signal pattern
dependent.
regards,
Larry Smith
________________________________
From:
si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <
si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on
behalf of Arun Kumar K <ArunKumar.K@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 10:30:51 PM
To: si-list
Cc: arunka97@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:arunka97@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Plane impedence and Target impedence
Hi Experts,
I am small doubt in Power integrity.
I did the power integrity one of the baord which is having DDR3 which
will work at 800MTps.
But all power, related to DDR are crossing the target impedence
around 75MHz.
Is this necessary to keep the plane impedence under the target
impedence up to 800MHz?
If yes ->, if not -> why?
Thanks & Regards
Arunkumar K
L&T Technology Services Ltd
www.LntTechservices.com<http://www.LntTechservices.com><http
://www.lnttechservices.com/<http://www.LntTechservices.com<h
ttp://www.lnttechservices.com/>>
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------------------------------
Msg: #2 in digest
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:39:51 +0800
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Seasim - port definition for s4p files
From: "xiaoguang.wang" <xiaoguang.wang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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dj4=
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End of si-list Digest V17 #165
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