[SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analysis Equipment..Tektronix vs. Agilent?
- From: <mike_resso@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:05:42 -0600
It's not Agilent's style to be biased toward either TDR or VNA (remember =
we sell both). However, this is simply question of accuracy. TDRs are a =
great tool to start troubleshooting and design because of the simple =
calibration and the intuitive nature of impedance profile. However, the =
dynamic range limitation of the TDR degrades the accuracy of measuring =
low level signal (IE crosstalk). This is especially true when you have =
backplane channels over 40". This lossy transmission line will attenuate =
the crosstalk amplitude tremendously. Since this question comes up so =
often, we published a good application note entitled, "Limitations and =
Accuracies of Time and Frequency Domain Analysis of Physical Layer =
Devices." This app note includes data taken over a period of 18 months =
on various platforms. To download this app note, go here:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?action=3Dref&cname=3D=
AGILENT_EDITORIAL&ckey=3D720377&lc=3Deng&cc=3DUS
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
On Behalf Of dmitry.a.smolyansky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:20 PM
To: vicente.cavanna@xxxxxx; tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; =
homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
VNA energy is not uniform either. It is being "uniformized" using =
calibration. The same applies for TDR. And while the TDR-based =
S-parameter dynamic range is lower than that of a VNA, it is more than =
adequate for serial data applications. You get about -70 dB of dynamic =
range at DC and -40 dB at 50 GHz on Tektronix equipment. I would not =
recommend this for microwave filter design, but for serial data it is =
perfect. As a side bonus, you get true differential - individual source =
per each channel, avoiding any switching errors and ensuring accurate =
non-linear and active device characterization.
Thanks,
=3D20
Dima Smolyansky
Tektronix, Inc.
P.O. Box 500, MS 39-111
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
503-627-7180
503-627-2260 (fax)
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:38 AM
To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
Hi Tom,
But it is not too important to get the same energy over the measurement =
frequency range (after all, the energy in the TDR stimulus is hardly =
uniform over frequency). What is of primary importance is to have
*sufficient* energy at the detector to overcome the noise (i.e.
sufficient signal to noise ratio) at all frequencies of interest. I do =
agree of course that the DUT plays a huge part in how much energy =
reaches the detector.
Vicente
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20 =20
>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:32 PM
> To: Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs);=3D3D20 =20
>homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
>=3D3D20
> Vicente
>=3D3D20
> It is not a problem getting a large amount of energy to the=3D3D20 =
DUT,=20
>it is a problem of getting the same energy over the=3D3D20 measurement =
>frequency range. =3D3D3D If there is an inductive=3D3D20 launch it =
will=20
>act as a low pass filter. Thus the energy=3D3D20 will be different at =
>different frequencies.
>=3D3D20
> Tom Dagostino
> Teraspeed(R) Labs
> 13610 SW Harness Lane
> Beaverton, OR 97008
> 503-430-1065
> tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> www.teraspeed.com=3D3D3D20
>=3D3D20
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> 401-284-1827
>=3D3D20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20 =20
>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D3D3D On Behalf Of =
Cavanna,=3D3D20 =20
>Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:20 PM
> To: homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
>=3D3D20
>=3D3D20
> With a VNA one can increase the power level of the stimulus=3D3D20 =
and=20
>get =3D3D3D more energy into and through the DUT even when the=3D3D20 =
DUT=20
>is lossy and/or =3D3D3D extremely reflective. With a TDR this=3D3D20 =
is=20
>not as easy to do; in fact the TDRs I =3D3D3D have used do not=3D3D20 =20
>permit such control. Vicente =3D3D20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D20=3D3D20=20
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter J
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:36 AM
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs=3D3D20
> Agilent?=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D20 Hi, The biggest problem in using a TDR or VNA =
for=3D3D20
> that matter=3D3D20
> >is=3D3D3D3D20 to get enough energy into the DUT since even a =
very=3D3D20
> small=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D20
> >inductance at the connection point from the TDR to the=3D3D20
> DUT=3D3D3D3D20 will=3D3D20
> >give an insertion loss. It's possible to get a return=3D3D3D3D20 =
loss=20
> >=3D
of
=3D3D
> >-20dB at 5GHz if you work hard. At 50 GHz it's hard=3D3D3D3D20 =
to=3D3D20
> get -3 dB=3D3D20
> >RL which means that half of the power will enter=3D3D3D3D20 =
the=3D3D20
> DUT and the=3D3D20
> >rest is wasted. By using a VNA it is possible=3D3D3D3D20 to make a
TRL=3D3D20
> >calibration kit and remove the effect of the=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D20
> testsystem and only=3D3D20
> >get the DUT characteristics.
> > I use a short pigtail with a thin semirigid coax instead of =3D
a=3D3D3D3D20
=3D3D
=3D3D20
> >probe when I do measurements with the TDR(tektronix). It=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D
=3D3D20
> >increases the accuracy a great deal.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > BR
> > Peter
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > -----Original Message-----
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >=3D3D20
> [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> > On Behalf Of ext Asbenson, Lyndell L =3D3D3D3D20
> > Sent: 24. april 2007 02:27
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > To: heidi.barnes@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D3D20
> > Cc: timothy.j.nash@xxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D3D20
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Dedicated TDR is much easer to setup then going the VNA=3D3D20
> route -Lyndell=3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D20 -----Original Message----- =3D3D3D3D20
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > ]
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > On Behalf Of Barnes, Heidi
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:17 PM =3D3D3D3D20
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Cc: timothy.j.nash@xxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D3D20
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Hi Tom,
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Tim is correct in that probing is not a simple task. If=3D3D20
> you=3D3D3D3D20 have=3D3D20
> >the time and patience, a Vector Network Analyzer with=3D3D3D3D20 =3D
PCB=3D3D20
> >Thru-Reflect-Line Calibration standards can provide a=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D3D20
> method for=3D3D20
> >getting measured electrical data for a PCB=3D3D3D3D20 structure that =
=3D
=3D3D
does=3D3D20
> >not include the probes or connectorized=3D3D3D3D20 transitions on to =
=3D
the
=3D3D
> >printed circuit board. The S-Parameter=3D3D3D3D20 data can =
then=3D3D20
> be converted=3D3D20
> >to time domain for TDR analysis of=3D3D3D3D20 the discontinuities =
and
a=3D3D20
> >40GHz box will give you around an=3D3D3D3D20 18pS rise time =
pulse=3D3D20
> (an edge=3D3D20
> >that is ~100mils long for a PCB=3D3D3D3D20 dielectric constant =
of=3D3D20
> ~4) which=3D3D20
> >gives a significant amount=3D3D3D3D20 of detail (50mils is =
rather=3D3D20
> ambitious=3D3D20
> >unless you have money=3D3D3D3D20 for the top end 110GHz VNA's or 8pS =
=3D
=3D3D
rise=3D3D20
> >time TDR scopes).=3D3D3D3D20 The other thing to think about is that =
=3D
most
=3D3D
> >applications=3D3D3D3D20 running about 3Gbps are differential =
so=3D3D20
> it is also=3D3D20
> >nice to=3D3D3D3D20 have a 4-Port system for measurements.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Regards,
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Heidi
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > -----Original Message-----
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > ]
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > On Behalf Of Nash, Timothy J
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:33 AM =3D3D3D3D20
> > To: tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D3D20
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Hi, Tom.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > I have tried using a Tektronix TDR (I'm not sure of the=3D3D3D3D20
> > model) to probe PCBs before, and found that what probe=3D3D20
> you=3D3D3D3D20 were=3D3D20
> >using, and WHAT you were probing, can make or break your=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D
=3D3D20
> >measurement. We were using a hand-held pressure-actuated =3D
type=3D3D3D3D20
=3D3D
> >probe and simply bending your wrist a little would change =3D
the=3D3D3D3D20
=3D3D
> >response. We had a tough time even discerning between two=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D
=3D3D
vias=3D3D20
> >spaced an inch apart from each other. I believe the=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D3D20
> probes used=3D3D20
> >by most PCB manufacturers are on a robotic arm=3D3D3D3D20 and they
are=3D3D20
> >probing PCB coupons that have pre-defined TDR=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D20
> features. I found=3D3D20
> >it very difficult to glean much useful info=3D3D3D3D20 from =
real=3D3D20
> PCB traces=3D3D20
> >when the discontinuities were as close=3D3D3D3D20 together as=3D3D20
> what you are=3D3D20
> >describing. I don't believe this was=3D3D3D3D20 a fault of =
the=3D3D20
> scope - just=3D3D20
> >a function of the probing method=3D3D3D3D20 and the feature=3D3D20
> constraints of=3D3D20
> >the PCB.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Tim
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > -----Original Message-----
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > ]
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > On Behalf Of tom_cip_11551
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:47 AM =3D3D3D3D20
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Hi to the Signal Integrity community.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > I am looking for a set of equipment with wich to do=3D3D20
> TDR=3D3D3D3D20 analysis=3D3D20
> >on=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 high speed PCB structures. We are now=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D3D20
> building boards=3D3D20
> >to run at=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 speeds of 3 Gb/s or faster and=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D
I=3D3D20
> would like to=3D3D20
> >resolve=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 discontinuites within, say, 50=3D3D3D3D20 =3D
mils=3D3D20
> to 80 mils=3D3D20
> >of each other.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > I have gotten quotes from Tektronix and Agilent for TDR=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D
=3D3D20
> >equipment. =3D3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D20 The Tektronix system consists =
of
the=3D3D20
> >DSA8200 digital sampling=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D3D =
scope,=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 the=20
> >=3D
80E04
=3D3D
TDR=3D3D20
> >sampling module and the =3D3D3D
> 80SICON=3D3D3D3D20
> > signal integrity and=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 failure analysis software =
(a=3D3D20
> $20K=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D20
> >item by itself).
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > The Agilent system consists of the 86100C scope, the =
54754A=3D3D3D3D20
=3D3D20
> >TDR=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 module and various other software programs for =
=3D3D
S=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D20
> >parameters, Jitter=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 analysis, etc.
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > I am wondering what the Signal Integrity community at =
large=3D3D3D3D20
=3D3D20
> >is=3D3D3D3D3D3D20 using.
> > Which system is more popular and, most important, =
cost=3D3D3D3D3D3D20=20
> >=3D
=3D3D
=3D3D3D3D
> effective?
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > What are some of the advantages and drawbacks of each?
> >=3D3D3D3D20
> > Are there other solutions on the market that are more cost=3D3D20=20
> >effective?=3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D20 Thank You =3D3D3D3D20 Tom =
=3D3D3D3D20 =3D
=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D
=3D3D3D3D20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >=3D3D3D3D20
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> field =3D3D3D3D20=3D3D20
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>=3D3D20 or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
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>=3D3D20
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> =3D3D3D20
>=3D3D20
>=3D3D20
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>=3D3D20 or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
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>=3D3D20
> For help:
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> =3D3D20
>=3D3D20
>=3D3D20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at: =3D20
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
=3D20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at: =20
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
=20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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