[SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends / MECL Handbook
- From: "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Jerry Johnson" <g.h.johnson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:14:59 -0700
Jerry,
Wow! Another old timer who hasn't been sent to the retirement home! I and
my old buddy, John Zasio, installed a bunch of test equipment at Motorola
during that time to test some custom ICs designed by Amdahl. That book was
our only practical guide during that time, even with the errors. I think
that might be what motivated Howard to write his first book.
Yes, life was pretty simple with ECL. Only one set of logic levels. Only
one way to terminate. Lots of heat! Differential signaling for long paths.
However, I don't miss the technology all that much, but is was fun pushing
the state of the art with a screaming clock frequency of 33 MHz!
I think we got 3 MIPS out of a machine that used 20 KW and weighed about a
ton! The main storage unit was solid state and had 256 K of memory. Wow!
One of them is in the computer history museum in Mountain View. Perhaps, we
should be as well!
Lee
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry Johnson" <g.h.johnson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 5:28 PM
To: "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Stefan Milnor" <stefan.milnor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Michael Greim"
<mgreim001@xxxxxxxxx>; "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Julian
Ferry" <julian.ferry@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends / MECL Handbook
> Lee,
>
> Well, there are several editions but I believe the primary author for
> all of them was Bill Blood. I have a second edition (purple) from
> Dec 1972, a fourth edition (brown) from 1983, and another "fourth edition"
> (blue) from 1988. Somehow over the years the other editions have been
> loaned out and not returned or something.
>
> I actually worked with Motorola on ECL before MECL was created. We had
> several custom types of ECL circuitry for Control Data that were a bit
> different. They started out as hybrid and then went custom silicon.
> They were used in the "STAR" supercomputer designed by Cray before he
> left Control Data.
>
> We also used ECL circuitry for the CYBER-205 supercomputer but it was
> made with discrete micro-T transistors and axial lead resistors on PCBs
> stacked into a module. When 100K ECL came out we tried to replace the
> discrete circuitry with that, but it wasn't as fast as the discrete stuff.
>
> Ah, the "good old days" when what we did wasn't even called Signal
> Integrity
> yet, we called it "system electronics" and I described the function to
> potential new hire engineers as "we define the limits within which the
> logic
> guys can pretend the circuitry is digital".
>
> Jerry
>
> On 7/21/2011 3:07 PM, Lee Ritchey wrote:
>> There must be more than one version of the paper copies as I read the
>> page
>> number right off my copy!
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Stefan Milnor"<stefan.milnor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 11:14 AM
>> To: "Michael Greim"<mgreim001@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: "Lee Ritchey"<leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Scott McMorrow"
>> <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Julian Ferry"<julian.ferry@xxxxxxxxxx>;
>> <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Right Angle Bends / MECL Handbook
>>
>>> Michael -
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, this is the book I meant. Thank you for pointing out the on-line
>>> PDF copy. Now I don't have to worry about losing my paper copy. I got my
>>> paper copy back in the days before the web, when you had to be nice to
>>> sales people if you wanted to get any data sheets and application notes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And, although I did not realize it when I referenced the MECL handbook
>>> this morning, it appears to be the source of the Right Angle Bend
>>> debate, as pointed out by Mr. Lee Ritchy. However, the page referenced
>>> by Lee is wrong - the right angle bend discussion is on (paper copy)
>>> pages 143 and 144 (and, in the PDF version, these are PDF pages 154 and
>>> 155).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know who is right on this. Perhaps this part of the MECL book is
>>> flawed, but overall I think this book is a great free resource, with
>>> clear arguments backed by measurements and figures.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And I don't think any of you debating this the last few days got any
>>> work done J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Michael Greim [mailto:mgreim001@xxxxxxxxx]
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 8:47 AM
>>> To: Stefan Milnor
>>> Cc: Lee Ritchey; Scott McMorrow; Julian Ferry; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stefan,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you mean the MECL System Design Handbook?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://s.eeweb.com/pl/1276642244-MECL-system-design-handbook.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are old school and want to do some highlighting you
>>>
>>> can also find this on amazon with the classic cover starting
>>>
>>> at 0.88.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0006YFW7G/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF
>>> 8&condition=used
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Job Bob says check it on out.......
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Michael C. Greim
>>>
>>> And all this science they don't understand
>>> Is just my job six days a week.....
>>>
>>> We will either find a way or make one -Hannibal
>>>
>>> In the middle of every difficulty lies opportunity -Al Einstein
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Stefan Milnor
>>> <stefan.milnor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> There were plenty of signal integrity issues in the days of DIPs and
>>> wire wrap. The structures were just bigger. One of my favorite signal
>>> integrity references is the Motorola ECL (Emitter Coupled Logic)
>>> Handbook, long out - of -print. It is amazing what they did in the '60s
>>> with high speed ECL wire-wrap constructions. And everything that you
>>> have been debating can be analyzed and explained with a set of equations
>>> developed in 1862 .....
>>>
>>> - Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>
>>> On Behalf Of Michael Greim
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:13 AM
>>> To: Lee Ritchey
>>> Cc: Scott McMorrow; Julian Ferry; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends
>>>
>>> Regarding "myths" and SI, Folks look everywhere and believe
>>> what they "think" is there, and other folks may very well go, yup
>>> it's there. However, they only really "see", when the light is good.
>>> After all, if someone posted something on the SI list, then by
>>> definition
>>> it has to be true because only "the experts" on any given topic post
>>> there.
>>> Unless of course, they are a manager.........;-) or mangler as some
>>> may view it, on items of a technical nature.......8-P......when the
>>> light is good.......8-O.
>>>
>>> Everyone knows that if you can't see it then it is not there, much like
>>> the emperors new clothes. Lab correlation and validation will verify
>>> the lack of clothing. Ya myt could sim this as well.
>>>
>>> In the days of DIPs there was no need for any signal or power integrity
>>> and a twisted pair was merely two wire wrap wires put into a drill and
>>> the trigger being pulled, and wirewrap established the ideal spiral
>>> serpentining for signal transmission.
>>>
>>> That is all............
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Michael C. Greim
>>>
>>> And all this science they don't understand
>>> Is just my job six days a week.....
>>>
>>> We will either find a way or make one -Hannibal
>>>
>>> In the middle of every difficulty lies opportunity -Al Einstein
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Lee Ritchey
>>> <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is odd that those who fret over right angle bends seem to ignore
>>> the
>>>> fact
>>>> that there is at least on at every via where a trace connects. My old
>>>> friend, Dan Murphy, called this "looking where the light is good."
>>>>
>>>> The same engineers used dual in line IC packages by the millions with
>>> as
>>>> many as three right angle bends in each lead. They weren't visible,
>>> so
>>>> they
>>>> didn't count!
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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