I agree with Scott. In addition though, dielectric losses also occur because, energy of the applied EM field is used up to align disorganized polar molecules in the direction of the applied EM field, not just because they are colliding with each other. So with increased temperature comes increased disarray: As a result, dielectric losses increase with more collision and energy been used up to align in the direction of the EM field. Femi -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 9:20 AM To: larry.zu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Loyer, Jeff; si-list (si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: References on electrical properties of dielectric materials? Larry, Technically you are incorrect. The resonant frequency of water dipoles is in the Terahertz region. The frequency for microwave ovens was chosen to be in a band unused for radio communications. It is known as an Industrial, Scientific, Medical (ISM) band. Heating of water molecules with EM energy is simply a manifestation of dielectric loss heating. The dielectric losses occur when electric dipoles (polarized molecules) bump together when they "wiggle" under the influence of a time-varying EM field. Dielectric loss is a measure of both the disorganization of the molecules and the relative polarity. Teflon, for instance is non-Polar. As a result, it is about the slickest substance known to man, and has one of the lowest dielectric losses. Oxygen is also non-polar. Increased in dielectric loss with temperature in a material is due to two effects. First, as temperature rises, the amount of molecular disorganization may increase. When it does, there are more collisions, and therefore more loss. This is usually a secondary effect. Second, however, is water absorption. Water is a highly polar molecule, and highly disorganized in the liquid state. As a result, as temperature increases, the amount of disorganization increases, and therefore the dielectric loss increases. This is seen as an increasing loss tangent with temperature rise. Finally, the resultant dielectric loss of a composite material is quite complex, since it forms what is known as an electromagnetic mixture. When humidity is absorbed by a material, the dielectric losses increase in the mixture, but where the water is absorbed is quite important, and changes the relative difference seen in both dielectric constant and dielectric loss. Water can be absorbed in two places in common PCB and packaging materials: it can be absorbed between the fiber filaments, or within the dielectric matrix. With exactly the same amount of water absorbed, the dielectric constant (as seen by a trace) in the mixture will be different. To understand what is going on with dielectric constant and dielectric loss in the presence of humidity and temperature you need to: Make sure that the material has been saturated. Which means that it has to be placed in a humidity chamber for extremely long periods of time, to allow the moisture to diffuse into the material. Measure the weight of the material before and after on a precision balance to determine the exact amount of water that has been absorbed. Perform precision measurements that are both de-embedded and temperature compensated, so that the impact of measurement method does not influence your findings. When you do this, you will generally find that the increase in loss and dielectric constant of a dielectric with humidity is a function of where the water is absorbed, % of water that is absorbed, and the temperature. (would it be surprising that the Dk and Df of water changes abruptly at 0C?) Because water is a polar molecule, it is attracted to other polar molecules. Materials that are hygroscopic are polar materials that like to bond with water,absorb humidity and tend to have higher electric polarity. Essentially they have unbound sites that are polar, where water molecules can bond. Most low-loss materials (but not all) are well-organized, and have low water affinity. Ester-based materials, as are used in semiconductor package have high water affinity. -- Scott McMorrow Teraspeed(r) Consulting a XXXXXX company 16 Stormy Brook Rd Falmouth, ME 04105 (401) 284-1827 Business http://www.teraspeed.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List forum is accessible at: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List forum is accessible at: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu