[SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
- From: Richard Jungert <r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>, <wftinghi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx>, <costel_t@xxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:13:31 -0700
Steve.
Its not about ISI, ( intersymbol interference) as I recall. Its all about test
equipment, accuracy and precision results in smaller reflections and better
VSWR within the bandwidth of interest.. Good quality test equipment is all
about precision, but precision costs money as we all know. We were making a
tester box that connected to multi channel wide bandwidth cable ( single ended
50 ohms ) and tested with 35ps risetime signaling from Tek equipment. It worked
but was expensive to make.
Richard Jungert
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 14:44:39 -0700
> From: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx
> CC: wftinghi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx;
> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>
> We're not in Kansas anymore. ( Well Eric is but that's only because he
> likes watching cows spin in tornadoes. ) The days of TTL/CMOS signaling
> with one end terminated at speed are long gone. So, why the drive for
> such tight Z control as +/-5%? The difference in ISI energy at the
> receiver between a +/-10% match and a +/-5% match for both ends
> terminated signaling standards is less than 1%. Why throw any time or
> money at such a small improvement?
>
> Steve
>
> Richard Jungert wrote:
> > Steve.
> >
> > Yes, +/- 5% is higher, how much depends on your fab house. I would have to
> > shop around if we needed lower cost. At the time 3 years ago I was
> > building test equipment and yes the board was expensive. The application we
> > were working on demanded tight impedance control.
> >
> >
> > BTW.
> >
> > This guy..
> > Vince BeusanMEI Inc(949)460-9500www.mei4pcbs.comTells me in a recent email
> > that his fab shop can do +/-5% all day long no problem but I have not
> > worked with them in the past. Maybe these guys have an updated fab process
> > set up where they can do tighter tolerance at lower cost. Only way to find
> > out is to try it.
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: wftinghi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx; bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx;
> >> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
> >> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:22:01 +0800
> >>
> >> Richard,
> >>
> >> So how about the cost? I feel +/-5% tolerance impedance control will
> >> increase the PCB cost a lot.
> >> The most local FAB houses I worked with will increase the cost if we are
> >> trying to specify tolerance less than 10% due to their worse yield rate.
> >> Specifying 5% tolerance can easily double the cost according to their
> >> feedbacks.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >> Behalf Of Richard Jungert
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 5:12 AM
> >> To: Bill Dempsey; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
> >>
> >> I promote Data Circuits Systems/Merix because they can spec 50 ohms +/- 5%
> >> tolerance which in my experience is rare in the high speed pcb fab
> >> business.
> >> Or at least it was 3 years ago.. Tektronix also uses this material in
> >> building fast TDR test equipment last I heard.
> >>
> >> Richard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx
> >>> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
> >>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:02:59 -0500
> >>>
> >>> 13EP is available as 13EP-SI as well and is used for higher temp
> >>>
> >> processing
> >>
> >>> used in lead-free assembly.
> >>> *Most* customers I deal with are moving over to EP and EP-SI for RoHS
> >>> products. Something to consider.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>>
> >> On
> >>
> >>> Behalf Of Richard Jungert
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 3:58 PM
> >>> To: costel; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
> >>>
> >>> Costel.
> >>>
> >>> I would talk to the engineers at Data Circuits in San Jose about this
> >>> material. Merix recently bought them out but in the old days it was Data
> >>> Circuits Systems Inc who built equipment with this type of material.
> >>>
> >>> Have you considered Nelco N4000-13SI ? This is also a very high
> >>>
> >> performance
> >>
> >>> material and in my recent designs/projects have found this material works
> >>> clear up to 15Ghz bandwidth.
> >>>
> >>> I recommend calling the FAB house your working with. These folks have that
> >>> info readily available.
> >>>
> >>> Richard Jungert
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 03:31:05 -0700
> >>>> From: costel_t@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
> >>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>
> >>>> Can anybody tell me the prepreg thicknesses for NELCO N4000-13EP
> >>>> much apreciated
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> Steve Weir
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