[SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
- From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: Richard Jungert <r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:40:28 -0700
Richard, basic as it is, for digital stuff the difference between 0.2%
and 0.1% of old data on the line is pretty much invisible. I am talking
single ended signaling, just with termination at each end versus one
end. Sorry if it sounded like I was talking differential signaling.
Best Regards,
Steve.
Richard Jungert wrote:
> Steve.
>
> Thats all basic VSWR stuff where you combine the impedance mismatch on the
> source with the mismatch on the end to calculate the total signal loss in the
> system.
>
> We did not build a 100 ohm differential system, it was a 50 ohm system.
> Simply put our customer wanted accuracy, so we took the exta time to build it
> with tighter tolerances. We did pretty much what they wanted and they paid
> for it. Sometimes customers are picky about certain things and one just has
> no choice but to give what they want.
>
> I agree with you totally when it comes to 100 ohm differential. But 50 Ohm
> stuff requires more precision for fast TDR testing apps. 100 ohm differential
> stuff is almost a no brainer, its real solid, low loss, noise cancelling
> technology. Throw it together and it works kind of stuff. There is still
> alot of 50 ohm equipment around these days.
>
> By the way if anyone wants a good wideband, multi-channel 100 ohm diff cable
> shoot me an email and I will give info.
>
> I used to test Digital Microwave Radios for ISI in baseband circuits, VSWR on
> the RF side and EB/NO in the digital reciever.
>
> Richard Jungert
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 17:54:31 -0700
>> From: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
>> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> CC: wftinghi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx;
>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>
>> Richard, VSWR causes ISI ( as does frequency dependent loss ): Signal
>> energy reflects first off the receiver back up the line to the
>> transmitter where it distorts currently transmitted data. Since the
>> distortion depends on prior data patterns it manifest as ISI. A simple
>> chart for line impedances:
>>
>> Reflected amplitude: ( Zline - Zload ) / ( Zline + Zload )
>> One term pessimistically assumes 0 Ohm driver
>> Z Line One term Two term
>> 80% -11.1% +1.2%
>> 85% -8.1% +0.7%
>> 90% -5.3% +0.2%
>> 95% -2.6% +0.1%
>> 98% -1.0% +0.0%
>> 102% +1.0% +0.0%
>> 105% +2.4% +0.1%
>> 110% +5.8% +0.2%
>> 115% +7.0% +0.5%
>> 120% +9.1% +0.8%
>>
>> In older signaling topologies with just one termination, tightening up
>> tolerances buys ISI margin. In double terminated topologies there is
>> little to gain ISI wise with matches better than 15%. This has some
>> nice implications:
>>
>> 1. We can get away with skinnier traces and thinner dielectrics without
>> worrying too much about etch tolerance for Z control, and
>> 2. We also don't need to be concerned about placing etch across prepreg
>> from return planes for Z control. That makes putting the top power
>> cavity on layers 2/3, and the bottom one on N-1/N-2 where they perform
>> best and reduce the number of bypass caps needed a no-brainer. With
>> older singly-terminated signaling schemes there was an argument for
>> putting signal on one side of a core and plane on the other for low-cost
>> Z control. Typically that put Gnd on layer 2, signals on layers 3 and
>> 4, and the first power cavity down on layers 5/6, which really hurts Z
>> axis inductance for both bypass caps and the ICs. It is also
>> incompatible with thin core dielectrics for power delivery.
>>
>> If you are making a piece of measurement equipment then depending on
>> what you want to see the extra precision may be justified.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve.
>>
>> Richard Jungert wrote:
>>
>>> Steve.
>>>
>>> Its not about ISI, ( intersymbol interference) as I recall. Its all
>>> about test equipment, accuracy and precision results in smaller
>>> reflections and better VSWR within the bandwidth of interest.. Good
>>> quality test equipment is all about precision, but precision costs
>>> money as we all know. We were making a tester box that connected to
>>> multi channel wide bandwidth cable ( single ended 50 ohms ) and tested
>>> with 35ps risetime signaling from Tek equipment. It worked but was
>>> expensive to make.
>>>
>>> Richard Jungert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 14:44:39 -0700
>>>> From: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> CC: wftinghi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx;
>>>>
>>> costel_t@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>>>
>>>> We're not in Kansas anymore. ( Well Eric is but that's only because he
>>>> likes watching cows spin in tornadoes. ) The days of TTL/CMOS signaling
>>>> with one end terminated at speed are long gone. So, why the drive for
>>>> such tight Z control as +/-5%? The difference in ISI energy at the
>>>> receiver between a +/-10% match and a +/-5% match for both ends
>>>> terminated signaling standards is less than 1%. Why throw any time or
>>>> money at such a small improvement?
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> Richard Jungert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Steve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, +/- 5% is higher, how much depends on your fab house. I would
>>>>>
>>> have to shop around if we needed lower cost. At the time 3 years ago I
>>> was building test equipment and yes the board was expensive. The
>>> application we were working on demanded tight impedance control.
>>>
>>>>> BTW.
>>>>>
>>>>> This guy..
>>>>> Vince BeusanMEI Inc(949)460-9500www.mei4pcbs.comTells me in a
>>>>>
>>> recent email that his fab shop can do +/-5% all day long no problem
>>> but I have not worked with them in the past. Maybe these guys have an
>>> updated fab process set up where they can do tighter tolerance at
>>> lower cost. Only way to find out is to try it.
>>>
>>>>> Richard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: wftinghi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx; bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx;
>>>>>>
>>> costel_t@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:22:01 +0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So how about the cost? I feel +/-5% tolerance impedance control will
>>>>>> increase the PCB cost a lot.
>>>>>> The most local FAB houses I worked with will increase the cost if
>>>>>>
>>> we are
>>>
>>>>>> trying to specify tolerance less than 10% due to their worse
>>>>>>
>>> yield rate.
>>>
>>>>>> Specifying 5% tolerance can easily double the cost according to their
>>>>>> feedbacks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>>
>>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Jungert
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 5:12 AM
>>>>>> To: Bill Dempsey; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I promote Data Circuits Systems/Merix because they can spec 50
>>>>>>
>>> ohms +/- 5%
>>>
>>>>>> tolerance which in my experience is rare in the high speed pcb
>>>>>>
>>> fab business.
>>>
>>>>>> Or at least it was 3 years ago.. Tektronix also uses this material in
>>>>>> building fast TDR test equipment last I heard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: bdempsey85@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> To: r_jungert@xxxxxxxxxxx; costel_t@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:02:59 -0500
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 13EP is available as 13EP-SI as well and is used for higher temp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> processing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> used in lead-free assembly.
>>>>>>> *Most* customers I deal with are moving over to EP and EP-SI for
>>>>>>>
>>> RoHS
>>>
>>>>>>> products. Something to consider.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>
>>>>>> On
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Jungert
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 3:58 PM
>>>>>>> To: costel; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Costel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would talk to the engineers at Data Circuits in San Jose about
>>>>>>>
>>> this
>>>
>>>>>>> material. Merix recently bought them out but in the old days it
>>>>>>>
>>> was Data
>>>
>>>>>>> Circuits Systems Inc who built equipment with this type of material.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you considered Nelco N4000-13SI ? This is also a very high
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> performance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> material and in my recent designs/projects have found this
>>>>>>>
>>> material works
>>>
>>>>>>> clear up to 15Ghz bandwidth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I recommend calling the FAB house your working with. These folks
>>>>>>>
>>> have that
>>>
>>>>>>> info readily available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richard Jungert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 03:31:05 -0700
>>>>>>>> From: costel_t@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] NELCO N-13ep HiTg > 170C
>>>>>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can anybody tell me the prepreg thicknesses for NELCO N4000-13EP
>>>>>>>> much apreciated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Steve Weir
>>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>>> 121 North River Drive
>>>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>>>>
>>>> California office
>>>> (866) 675-4630 Business
>>>> (707) 780-1951 Fax
>>>>
>>>> Main office
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>>>> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual
>>>>
>>> property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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>>>> Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting
>>>>
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>> --
>> Steve Weir
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> 121 North River Drive
>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>>
>> California office
>> (866) 675-4630 Business
>> (707) 780-1951 Fax
>>
>> Main office
>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>
>> Oregon office
>> (503) 430-1065 Business
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>>
>> http://www.teraspeed.com
>> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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>
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Steve Weir
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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Narragansett, RI 02882
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(866) 675-4630 Business
(707) 780-1951 Fax
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This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of
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