[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: cTLI scores?
- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
- To: InquestGSD@xxxxxxx, Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, santanagsd1954@xxxxx
- Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:14:22 -0400 (EDT)
Can we get the scales particular by breed?
I can't imagine "normal" for any breed being 3-8 since we know EPI is 2.5
and dogs in the 2.5 to 5 and (somewhat?) over range are susceptible to
SIBO...or maybe I'm wrong and this whole pancreatic problem is worse than I
anticipated???? If 3-8 is common/normal for GSDs then we DO have a problem...
The labs, as I understand it, measure what they are sent and pay no
attention to breed re reference although my results clearly say 5-35 is the
reference range and the breed is listed as GSD.
I have my vet asking on a vet "list" (apparently there is a list for
everything!) re test scores.
He was doing back flips over a fasting score of 25.1 BTW:) And I'm like,
yeah, she's FAT, looks at a kibble and gains, is a food THIEF when
pregnant, STOLE artichoke and cheese dip for the love of God (!!!) with no
digestive issues...didn't anticipate a digestive problem, but "no, wait, I
have
more questions!"
As far as testing under a year, my vets feel, what the hell, it's a few
dollars and if there is a potential problem better to know and have the option
to treat and help a dog rather than be in the dark...makes sense to me,
surely I've thrown money away on worse <G>. Figure I can always retest but
I'd rather be alert to a potential problem than be in the dark.
Kay (THANK YOU!) forwarded what she had originally sent to the list, (re.
Dr. Williams), I must have missed about treating under 10. Note what Dr.
Dunn says about dogs struggling under 10...
Barb, chime in here, what say you?
You know, we might be on to something here. Like Kay's vet, Dr. Dunn, it
makes a whole lot of sense to me that a dog w/ ineffective pancreatic
function is a sitting duck for TG. We know they are a sitting duck for SIBO
and
I am ready to make the leap and suggest they are also prime candidates for
mesenteric torsion.
Now...if I just had some data...
On Oct 5, 2012, at 8:22 AM, "Eleanor Dunn, DVM, Dip ABVP, CVA"
<_eleanor.dunn.dvm@xxxxxxxxxx (mailto:eleanor.dunn.dvm@xxxxxxxxx) > wrote:
I will test them young if I have significant worries about them (dropped
pasterns, very thin, picky appetite, etc).
I do find that some are normal when young and drop by 1-2 years, so I will
retest later, and sometimes try to hold off if I can so I get a more
accurate number.
They need to be fasted to be accurate.
I have seen the numbers normal when fed and dramatically low when fasted.
The test is standardized for fasted, and many vets don't realize this.
I treat anything under 10. The lab says 5, but Dr. Williams who developed
the test and now is "semi-retired" says that is probably not a bad idea.
Under 5 they are seriously ill from inability to digest food, but under 10
and they are still struggling - ie eating, but not able to absorb the
nutrients, most is passing through to feed the bacteria. That is how I think
it is
related to toxic gut - there are lots of unabsorbed undigested nutrients
inside the intestine and it is like a feast for bacteria.
Eleanor
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Kay Springer <_showgsd@xxxxxxxx
(mailto:showgsd@xxxxxxx) > wrote:
Hi Eleanor- can you tell me what number you normally see in GSDs when you
test them? I seem to recall that the numbers for shepherds tend to be lower
than other breeds. At what number do you supplement if the dog is showing
no abnormal signs ie eating good stools good etc.
And at what age do you test ie how young?
Do you think this problem is related to toxic gut?
Thanks for any info
Kay
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/)
In a message dated 11/3/2012 6:49:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
InquestGSD@xxxxxxx writes:
I am so behind on emails, doing a few fund raisers for Sandy victims, this
has taken all my time, and still trying to get the contractors to finish
repairs on my house before the next wave of storms on Wednesday, but let me
share with you what I learned
Test MUST be done fasting. Recommended protocol, first test after 1 year
of age, second test six months later, and then once a year. Tests before 1
year of age are basically a waste of your time and money.
GSD "normal" (more like common) range is 3-8, treat anything below 5.
But that was the lab we use, not Antech. These scales apparently differ by
lab. This range is particular to GSD, and as I understand, is different for
each breed. Same experience as yours, the lab doesn't communicate with the
patient/owner that's paying the bill, they only talk to the vets. We are
not worthy....<G>....
Of course, all this is under the assumption that the animals tested are
fasted, not on any prozyme/enzyme supplementation, etc. Basically, the owners
have to be honest for all this work to be worth it.
Later, have to start a couple of chip-in accounts for people who are in
real need.
I'll be no mail, and will check emails when times allows.
Be safe everyone.
* Ileana *
Love me, love my dogs.
In a message dated 11/3/2012 11:40:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx writes:
So...just got the score back on a bitch I had tested (fasting results)
25.1
Her 7 month old puppy, 13.3
I can see on the fax from the vet, that the lab's (Antech) normal range is
5-35.
We know that EPT is anything under 2.5, and we have also learned some vets
treat under 5.
Texas A & M has apparently done a lot w/ this and their definition of
normal is slightly different (5.something) but not enough to split hairs.
On the Texas A & M web site they used to have a chart that showed low
normal, etc. and now I can't find it, although interestingly I am finding
case
studies of dogs w/ SIBO and a reference for one dog at "low normal" at
6.8.
So I wrote to them and here's what I got:
Hello,
Thank you for your interest in our services. Unfortunately, due to
veterinary licensing issues we are legally prohibited from giving advice
or
releasing results directly to pet owners. However, we do offer a free
consultation service that your veterinarian may use. Please have your
veterinarian
contact us at gilab@xxxxxxxxxxxx or 979-862-2861, and we will set up a
consult
request so that one of our internal medicine specialists can work with
your veterinarian to provide the highest level of patient care available.
If
you are looking for a specialist in your area, you can search at the
American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine at
_http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=3_
(http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=3)
or the American Animal Hospital Association at _http://www.healthypet.com_
(http://www.healthypet.com/) . As always, we are here to help. Thank you
for
your continued support.
Thank you,
Samantha Britt
************************************************************************
Does anybody have additional info, charts, recommended frequency for
tests, recommended ranges for breeding stock? I'm not so much concerned
w/ a
definition for EPI...My thought is a lower than ideal pancreatic function
can set a dog up for a whole lot of things, SIBO, TG etc., I am trying to
quantify "lower than ideal" and I'll be damned but I am coming up empty
on
data.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/)
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