One of the possible reasons we have oversized dogs in our breed, is the prodominence of the German dog Axel v.d.DeiningHauserheide(sp) Axel was the sire of Ch. Troll vom Richterbach, who was the sire of the famous Arbywood "F" litter . These dogs were sizeable and produced some large dogs. Troll himself was placed 25th at the Seiger Show I understand primarily because he was too big..and he was a big powerfull dog. Very impressive to we Americans, or at least to me. Axel had other big sons,Ch Wotan vom Richterbach was pony sized I swear..a massive tall dog.and Axel vom Poldihuas was also a big dog. Axel v P and Troll are everywhere in the breed.If you double up enpugh on a dog, eventually some of those big genes will show up.I think that is where the size is comminf into the present day dogs. Chuck Kruger dvm www.vibrantpets.net ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================