[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Amazing shoulders & 'forechests'
- From: carolyn mckenna <carolynmckenna@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx, lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx, marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:59:49 -0800 (PST)
Carolyn Martello explained this sooooo well and absolutely
correctly. In addition, the ribcage has nothing to do with shoulder
angulation. Nine pairs of ribs are connected directly to the sternum
or breast- bone by the costal cartilages, three pairs are joined at
the lower edge by cartilages, and the last pair are free at the end
(floating ribs ). In the front, forward of the ribcage, the sternum
protrudes upward and outward, much like a finger. You can see this
in the skeletal picture in our illustrated standard (second picture)
In the third picture, you are shown the correct relationship to the
shoulder assembly with the dotted line from the poll of the neck
dropping in front of the prosternum and well in front of the front
foot. It is
when this line descends through the shoulder and down through the
leg, that you see the pushed forward shoulder, the ewe neck, short
neck, upright upper arm, etc. If the shoulder assembly is
positioned correctly, the elbow will be not only directly below the
top of the blade, but also directly below the bottom of the sixth
rib. And in case anyone cares, the reason prosternum does not pass
spell check is that pro is a prefix meaning in front, forward,
leading, etc., so that rather explains this little finger like thingy
in the front of the sternum.( big grin)
Carolyn (the other one )
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Amazing shoulders & 'forechests'
To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx, lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 11:24 AM
NO shoulder blade or humerous meets the prosternum!
It is literally impossible.
The "forechest" .... "breastbone" or "prosternum" or "sternum is merely the
'breastplate' that carries...or
protrudes up and forward from the central structure of the ribcage where it
meets and joins in the CENTER.
This plate of bone or cartilage-like bone is for the protection of the heart
and lungs. It also protects the actual
shoulder joints as the animal moves forward through brush and weeds. That is
why it 'should' protrude to the
forefront of the actual shoulder assembly.
Ligature and muscle and flesh criss cross the front of the chest or
breastplate......but it is not attached by any
bone or joint to the shoulder assembly. Muscle and ligaments and flesh
criss cross the entire structure of
any skeletal structure. There is no joint in the shoulder that attaches it to
the body per se.........it is literally
"laid on" with ligaments and muscle unlike the pelvis and hip joints.
The shoulder is a "moveable" part and is "set on" on the OUTSIDE of the ribbing
and therefore cannot
be attached to the sternum in the center by any joint or formation of a joint.
Stroke the front of your dog's
throat...and it is the "prosternum" that your hand hits as it strokes
downward...IN THE CENTER.....no matter
what the position or 'lay on' of the shoulders.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the angle of the shoulder or the extension
or movement of the shoulder
as it is does not move. It CAN however give the "appearance" of a nice
shoulder angle......by sticking out in
front of a straight shoulder.....and thus the old term.... "false front".
If you look at many photos of many dogs ( as in the Selects ) you will see
every type of shoulder angulation
imagineable and the same with the degree of forechests.......one having nothing
to do with the other.
As Mike says..... a dog overloaded with way too much forechest can be almost
clumsy or 'cobby'....but typically
that 'issue' goes with a dog that is very low on leg as with the Daschund or
the Corgi......but has nothing to do
with any of the many variations of shoulder angulation or movement that we see
in our Breed.
It also is not the "center of gravity" of any moving animal. The center of
gravity remains the same at all
times......central to the extension and length of the animal.
( by the way.......prosternum does not get past spell check ) <G>
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx To: lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx ;
marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:28 PMSubject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Simply
Amazing forechests....
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh....have to disagree Carolyn. The point on that forechest
"thing" (actually called a
"breastbone" in our illustrated standard) is actually made where the
shoulder blade and humerus meet.
(Only if it were that easy...but to complicate matters, the whole area is
overlaid w/ a lot of muscle...or
it "should" be.) If the shoulder is "laid on wrong" (sorry, horse term),
that is, if it is too straight and/or
too short, and/or if there isn't the correct angle between the shoulder
blade and humerus (aka upper arm),
you will notice an "absence" of the prominence of the breastbone and you
will see that movement is "off".
Now, movement can be off in several ways depending on just "why" and how
"wrong" the fore is....for
instance is the blade too short??? too straight??? Is the upper arm too
short?? too straight????
ate the bones in the wrong proportions???.....a dog can be "quick-stepping",
a dog can lift, or as
we see an awful lot today, even in pictures that folks use for ads
(EEEEAAAAKKK!) a dog can move
from the elbow...sort of like waving to the crowd.
I don't know what caused Mike to post his inquiry, I privately mailed
e-mailed him a photo of a dog w/ an
obvious "breastbone" after <G>, but I will say in out PC publication and on
various lists, I've seen folks
post pics and go on and on about "fronts" as I scratch my head and say
"WHAT front???"
b-cause if you were to drop a string from the top of their shoulder to the
floor, there would be far greater
than the 90 degree angle that is supposed to be created by the shoulder
blade and upper arm and you
can't find a fore chest w/ a search warrant! Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/)
In a message dated 2/22/2010 3:45:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Thanks Carolyn, a great post to build on So this is where I differ from
that opinion, I do feel that if the
shoulder is too far forward, exhibiting little or no forechest(forchest,
fourchest, 4chest - ;-) ) it will affect the
balance, since the center of gravity is now moved backwards in relation to
the leg and shoulder changing the
cantilever point and perhaps resulting in a lifting of the forehand
particularly if coupled with a straight shoulder.
regards, and would love to get you feedback
M
-----From: "Carolyn Martello" <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To:
lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx,
showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:19:00 PM GMT
-06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: Simply Amazing forechests....
Hi Mike;
I meant to respond to your post........but got lost in the flurry of other
responses over the weekend
and ended up deleting all the posts.......therefore depending on a pretty
pitiful memory!!
I can tell you that I like things "simplified"......so I refer to it as
"forechest"......<G>....and since it has
absolutely nothing to do with the movement of the dog there is no
'specified' measurement of it that I
know of.....other than "showing ahead of the shoulder in profile" and it
should be deep and capacious.......
As Goldbecker explained it ......the "purpose" of the forechest is for the
herding dog gaiting through
weeds and small low brush to catch the brunt of the constant
chafing.......and simply for the beautiful
balanced outline and appearance of our Breed, as I understand it. Beautiful
forechest is a nice addition
in beautiful type in it's "appearance" on our GSD....but especially on a
nice 'stallion' male.
Too much and a dog can appear and be "overloaded' and clumsy. In my opinion
it has absolutely nothing
to do with the angle of the shoulder nor the front extension of a correct
shoulder.
Thanks for trying to actually open up a discussion about THE DOGS!!! Hang in
there.........
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Lindenhill German Shepherds To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday,
February 22, 2010 11:02 AM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Simply Amazing
As I often do, I recently posted a subject on the list to instigate a
discussion on certain aspects of structure
of our beloved breed. Expecting a lively educational and informative
discussion(some of which I got)
I was not disappointed., unfortunately the object of that discussion turned
into a who's resource for a
given term was correct or not. I tried to steer the discussion back to the
topic but what was quite surprised
by the pasion displayed by those list members focused on the correct
spelling debate. My disappointment is
that many of those who engaged in that debate, I had held in high regard, I
say to you - please do some self examination(as will I) on your motives and
attitude as well as your communication style. It is very easy to
get out of hand on a limitted communication medium such as this and does
little to suggest how your mentoring is beneficial to others.
If the list has truly devolved to that level, it offers both me as an
experienced breeder nor the new comer little if any hope of learning
anything
of value here.
I suggest that If you have a suggestion or a correction for someones post,
please, as a matter of etiquette I suggest you address it privately and
allow them to make(or not) a correction.
My days here are numbered,
Regards,
M
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POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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