Richard,
Hey, when you drag the likes of Troy and Kevin L into the chat, you know
you touched a nerve. :-)
Kurt(gimme lead any day) Gugisberg
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 5:23 PM, R Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I’ve sent thank you’s off chat to some people including Gary for their
thoughts and suggestions. Some aren’t going through.
So, thank you all for your comments. Even if we disagree.
Richard Dierking
*From: *Gary Schneider <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, January 30, 2017 5:13 PM
*To: *roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
If I used an alternative, say small rocks like gravel, for nose weight,
how is that "safer" than say bb's or shot or small nuts etc? If the rocket
or nose come in ballistic it will weigh and have the same mass as it would
with metal. If the nose opened up in mid flight and rained down it's
contents of small rocks how would that be safer than bb's or other small
items like lead shot?
If you think prohibiting metal for nose weight is safer then all metal
should be prohibited. No metal fins, they could separate and fall and
slice someone open. No all thread or nuts etc.. The AV bay could rip apart
and rain down all thread and nuts and poke an eye out. Just a couple
examples.
In fact, if we go to no metal, then all rockets should only be made out of
lightweight materials and we stick to cardboard, paper, and only balsa
fins. No fiberglassing, no fiberglass or carbon fiber airframes, too
dangerous! They could Cato and rain down sharp pieces and if a fiberglass
rocket comes in ballistic it can and will cause severe damage as compared
to a lightweight un-glassed cardboard rocket. In fact no more plastic nose
cones either. Too dangerous! A plastic nose cone could fall with chute
separation and really hurt someone and cause more damage the other
alternatives. I don't know what those alternatives are but I am just saying
that they should be looked into is all.
Now, I know I am being a smart ass and over the top with what I said
above but if suggesting that using any kind of metal for nose weight be
prohibited just on the small chance that a bb might escape then one might
as well consider ALL the potential hazards of rocket construction materials
that have a much better chance of causing harm in the event of a failure.
Just sayin is all..
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 30, 2017, at 4:42 PM, Kevin R. Lane <krlane@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Richard,
When people say they used a few bullets for nose weight...I think they
mean just the lead bullet, not the loaded shell.
A lot of people who reload make their own bullets, which takes a small
melting pot for the lead. You could make a mold with a custom design just
for nose weight and pour it with one of those little pots. Maybe you can
design a safer nose weight just by changing the shape, and you could easily
mold in a nut or 2 into the weight so it could be adjusted on a piece of
all thread.
Kevin
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy tablet.
-------- Original message --------
From: R Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 1/30/17 3:41 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: David Smith <davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx>, roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
Could be bad. Alternatives are better. So, why not use better?
I’ve even heard of people using used bullets. Wow, what are they
thinking? Well, they are probably thinking, “lead or copper is dense and I
have these.” But, what if someone was injured by one of the bullets? What
would be said on KCAL at 9?
Dang, and how about using nails. ☹ They are dense and cheap.
People that want to hurt other people and do damage, use pieces of metal
as shrapnel (a shell containing nails or pieces of metal…). Google it if
you would like. What would other people call it if there was a serious
incident?
*From: *David Smith <davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, January 30, 2017 3:10 PM
*To: *roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
I frequently use 1/4-20 all-thread in the nose cone to attach weight as
needed. I havent had any trouble with the weight coming loose.
I still haven't seen any explanation of why metal weights are bad.
David Smith
NAR 78668, TRA 15803
Amateur Extra: W6DPS
On Jan 30, 2017 15:05, "R Dierking" <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hum a rod in the nose…
I understand the reasoning. But, I think there’s a solution that still
would be safer.
*From: *Adrian P. Bailey <adrian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, January 30, 2017 2:55 PM
*To: *roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
I went looking for advice on this a while ago. I didn’t want to epoxy
lead shot into the nose as that’s permanent but I did want something dense
that I could position as far forward as possible, to avoid adding
unnecessary mass. A steel threaded rod, epoxied into the tip of the
nosecone, could be used to add custom weights as necessary.
*From:* roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:roc-chat-bounce@freeli
sts.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Klett
*Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2017 2:49 PM
*To:* ROC Chat <roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
Yes, they weight the same but their volume can be very different. If the
volume difference is significant (lead vs. feathers) you may need more
weight to counteract the location of the CG of the weight.
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 2:37 PM, David Smith <davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mike,
An ounce of BBs weighs the same as an ounce of sand.
Mass is Mass.
Dave
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Michael Klett <xsive.guy@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
No, mass is not mass. If I needed 4 oz of weight at the tip I would need
a pound at the middle (depending the length of the rocket, placement of CP
an CG etc. The point is the lever arm.) With lead I can get really close
to the tip. With feathers I'd need a lot more volume and the cg of the
mass would not be near the tip so I'd need perhaps a pound of feathers to
be equivalent to the 4 oz in moving the rocket's CG. The length of
distance between the center of Mass of the rocket without the weight and
the center of mass of the added weight determines how much weight you need
to add. At the tip "less is more".
But to your other point. Once I add the epoxy to keep the sand in place
it in fact becomes "trash" on the playa because of the epoxy. And if I've
used the epoxy and things come apart a 4 oz blob of sand/epoxy is going to
hurt just as much (probably) as a 4 oz blob of lead/epoxy.
Sorry, I don't see any benefit to changing materials currently. Although
I must admit your idea of using water for ballast on the way up and letting
it drain out on the way down to reduce weight at landing has always
fascinated me.
Thanks,
Mike
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 2:19 PM, R Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Sorry Mike. I believe you have not considered other things and went to
what you knew first.
Yes, mass is mass. I don’t think anyone needs a high density material
for nose weight. It’s just not that critical.
However, it would probably be impossible for me to convince anyone that
insists on metal material. But, what the heck, I’m trying anyway.
Richard
*From: *Michael Klett <xsive.guy@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, January 30, 2017 2:15 PM
*To: *ROC Chat <roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
Richard,
My ballast of choice is lead BBs. They seem safely captured in epoxy. I
would also argue that by using lead they occupy less volume so I can get
the center of the mass of the BBs further in to the tip of the nose cone
and so I need less weight. Less weight is safer. If I tried to put the
weight in the AvBay for instance, I'd need a lot more weight to balance the
rocket and the additional weight would reduce the safety some.
Thanks,
Michael
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 2:05 PM, R Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Then why do even people with model rockets use metal?
The RSO wouldn’t want someone with an aluminum nose cone on a HP rocket
but accepts rockets with a nose containing bolts or lean shot. And, having
taken a nose apart that had bb’s set in 5 minute epoxy, the epoxy cracks
and releases the bb’s.
*From: *Allen Farrington <allen.farrington@xxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, January 30, 2017 1:59 PM
*To: *roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[roc-chat] Re: Prohibiting Metal for Nose Weight
Tripoli has an official statement on using metal...you can find it on
their website here:
http://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety%20Code/
Metal%20in%20Rocket%20Construction%20v2.0.pdf
Allen
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 30, 2017, at 1:50 PM, R Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Next time the NAR and TRA safety rules are revised, there should be
something about what kind of nose weight should be used or how about
shouldn’t be used.
Don’t the codes already say something about minimizing the use of metal?
Why add it? There’s no good reason why metal has to be used; there are
other things that would work fine.
And, just to get ahead of the one response that’s going to ask if a
rocket with other types of weight could hurt someone just as bad. Yes, I
realize that. But, again, if you think through the various failure
scenarios, metal (bolts, lead shot, bb’s, what ever…) is a poor choice for
nose weight.
What other things could be used? Things that would be even better for
both safety and performance.
Richard Dierking
--
*Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace for ever.*
*Psalm 72*
--
*Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace for ever.*
*Psalm 72*
--
David P Smith
NAR 78668, L2
Amateur Extra, W6DPS
--
*Justice shall flourish in his time, and fullness of peace for ever.*
*Psalm 72*
