Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
- From: "James Panes" <jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:59:48 -0500
Hmmmm, a blind pilot. I suppose that with audio and tactile AT, it might be
possible. The real problem with both a blind pilot and a blind web designer
is that the tactile and audio channels are much narrower band width inputs
than sight. It is a fact that pilots land planes blind frequently. They rely
on the readings from their instruments to land in low visibility conditions
where the amount they can see out the aircraft windows is worse than
useless.
As things are right now, we are not going to see blind race-car drivers or
pilots any time soon, but don't be so close-minded about it.
Regards,
Jim
jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
"Everything is easy when you know how."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
I agree, Rick. Some things are not going to happen for blind
people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most
certainly getting right back off. However, I know many blind
people who are very successful at whatever they do, from running
a vending machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the
spelling) Trail. I am blind and want a degree in computer
science so I can work for HW or a similar company. Just because
someone cannot see means nothing, especially in this age of such
powerful and "smart" technology. As I said, some things are out
of the reach of people with no sight but in 50 years.. Who
knows? Since this is supposed to be a list about programming,
though, can we please get it back on track and not have 20+
messages a day on this topic?
Have a great day,
Alex
> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>Matthew,
>It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to do
their job
>a chance if they are blind? I hope this isn't so since you are
blind
>yourself. I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soely
because of
>your being blind. I know I don't want to be discriminated
against soley
>because of my being blind. I'm not sure if your just trying to
prove a
>point or your really meaning what you've said in your posts. You
said you
>wouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either.
Please explain.
>If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fair
to say you
>wouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the fact
they are
>blind.
>Thanks,
>Rick
>--
>Visit my webpage and podcast feed at:
>http://www.blind-geek-zone.net
>and my web Blog at:
>http://blind-geek-zone.blogspot.com/
>Join the BGZ mailing list by sending a blank email message to:
>blind_geek_zone-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> and put subscribe in the subject line.
>Contact info:
>Email - rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx & rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Skype - rharmon928
>MSN - rharmon928@xxxxxxxxxxx
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>In your own opinion you're good. What objective measures or
assessments can
>you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the
same mistake
>as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as
sighted people.
>They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience.
I'm sorry
>but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the
person helping
>my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related
movement disorder
>is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else. I want someone who
will be able
>to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own
assessment
>of the situation and not have to go through someone else to
convey to them
>the patient's physical movements.
>Matthew
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>This entire thread is ridiculous. Loads of sighted people can't
design a
>decent Web site. Just when did it become necessary for each and
every blind
>person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer
or
>anything else for that matter. That is a pretty high standard
and just below
>God.
>Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out
code many
>thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there. Why isn't that
enough? If
>one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.
>I am a Physiotherapist. I am darn good at rehabilitating
acquired brain
>injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care.
This does
>not negate my value. Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.
>Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person
can benefit
>from any reflected glory.
>Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme?
>Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
>DLeavens@xxxxxxx
>Skype DaleLeavens
>Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear
habitat.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM
>Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner
>Matthew,
>You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise
to
>eminence in their field, in a sighted world. I sincerely hope
that you're
>suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough
to clarify
>your scepticism?
> Regards,
>Léonie.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Matthew2007
>Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30
>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life,
name these
>people. I want to try to find them and research the particulars
of their
>situations. After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of
that moron
>in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign
stating
>"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but
the truth
>is very different.
>Matthew
>---- Original Message -----
>From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>> *taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,
>> *reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*
>> teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the
NFL by
>> being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even
with the
>> average players despite his having only half of his right
foot...
>> one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being
just
>> better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of
the law,
>> nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average
skiers,
>> despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double
amputee...
>> one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by
only
>> fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing
only with
>> those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves..
>> these are the types of people I am talking about, they are
masters of
>> there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who
don't or
>> haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct
disadvantages
>> that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and
force the
>> world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do
what is
>> required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there
field, no
>> matter what...
>> quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us
wishes to put
>> forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!
>> inthane
>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit me
>> at:
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming
>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>> Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't
even know
>>> how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers
are better
>>> at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better
than those
>>> sighted that don't know too many things?
>>> We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted
web
>>> designer.... at least.
>>> But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to
create
>>> images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will
care that
>>> he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web
pages,
>>> or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.
>>> If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html
validator, it
>>> will tell you:
>>> Failed validation, 30 Errors
>>> So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all,
because Google's
>>> page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design....
better said
>>> almost without any design.
>>> Octavian
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
>>>> previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a
habit of
>>>> overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I
don't
>>>> decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down..
>>>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have
mastered
>>>> areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as
well or
>>>> better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans
>>>> laters,
>>>> inthane
>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit
>>>> me at:
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming
>>>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't
even show
>>>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come
one
>>>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe
the first
>>>>> is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
>>>>> written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll
slowly up
>>>>> or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
>>>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes,
there
>>>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in
different
>>>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they
will
>>>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he
is.
>>>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
>>>>> important. What we can do would have a very low value if we
would be
>>>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.
>>>>> Octavian
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since
we live
>>>>>> in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going
to
>>>>>> need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no
experience
>>>>>> in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an
>>>>>> advantage.
>>>>>> but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's
the
>>>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing
with
>>>>>> it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and
do
>>>>>> your best to adapt.
>>>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that
has
>>>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in
his
>>>>>> life,
>>>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself
often
>>>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had
site.
>>>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
>>>>>> yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible
cursor and
>>>>>> go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such
as,
>>>>>> the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents
us
>>>>>> with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
>>>>>> including the navigation links which run from left to right
across the
>>>>>> page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.
>>>>>> take care, and good luck,
>>>>>> inthane
>>>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
>>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit
>>>>>> me at:
>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>> Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it
..
>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I
can
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because
I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly
that
>>>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
>>>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
>>>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was
in
>>>>>>> the right!!!!
>>>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat
>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>> sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like
this.
>>>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would
happen
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
>>>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look
and
>>>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based
on
>>>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only
thing I
>>>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
>>>>>>> specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to
build
>>>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't
imagine
>>>>>>> very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own
work,
>>>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of
..
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they
will
>>>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
>>>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which
should
>>>>>>> be perfectly logical.
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>> Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if
you
>>>>>>>> all will
>>>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention
hard
>>>>>>>> work and
>>>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers!
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>> Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won
a
>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web
>>>>>>>>> application.
>>>>>>>>> Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
>>>>>>>>> using HTML,
>>>>>>>>> CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and
the
>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>> people in the company rave about it.
>>>>>>>>> I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>> design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.
>>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>>>>>>>>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>>>>>>>>> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
>>>>>>>>> change the
>>>>>>>>> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
>>>>>>>>> Mead
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people
just
>>>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system,
for
>>>>>>> free."
>>>>>>> Linus Torvalds
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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