[program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

  • From: "Travis Roth" <travis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:13:58 -0600

You wrote:

> The Java access bridge captures events like
> these and sends them down to the native classes, which send an event to
the
> accessible devices. 

 

I do not think this is entirely accurate. I do not think the Java Access
Bridge connects back to MSAA on Windows, for example. Rather, screen readers
have to connect to and support the JAB directly. Adding yet another set of
libraries and Java-specific events they have to handle. 

 

 

From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Stefik
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 10:51 AM
To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

 

No that's not right Soronel, for at least two reasons:

1. It's a myth that programs "just work" for accessibility. Companies like
Microsoft claim this all the time and it's just not true. In practice,
developers need custom controls sometimes, even for simple projects, and so
what you often get is a mish-mash of half accessible code. In some
applications, it's all but impossible to make them accessible. Video games
are a good example. The few that are really accessible are either home grown
auditory games or research projects where they have integrated in (e.g.,
accessible second life). Even on Sodbeans, we really "need" extensible
support. You can't make talking debuggers with stock controls. It just
doesn't work.

Another way to think about this is that the standard controls in native
applications, that do nothing, have good accessibility support out of the
box, usually. Nothing else really does. People can have different points of
view on this, but from my perspective, that's not "just working."

 

2. Your second point is that it would never work unless people "integrated"
the patch. What we're talking about though is potentially building it and
trying to get it integrated as a new access bridge into the JDK proper.
Then, it would work the same as the previous one, except would work
"better," be community owned, and when a new GUI control came out, we could
write the patch ourselves, forcing it work as a blind person would expect.

My $0.02,

Stefik

 

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

The thing about getting it integrated is that it would have a much
better chance of programs "just working".

Take a look at winforms in .net for example, so long as the programmer
sticks with standard controls there is little need to concern oneself
with accessibility, the support is simply there and it works with no
special attention from the programmer.

I see something external to the JDK requiring each program to
independently incorporate the fix, and just like with WPF (an
alternative to winforms for .net UI development) lots of programs
won't.


On 12/9/13, Andreas Stefik <stefika@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Here's the basics:
>
> 1. Different platforms have different standards for sending information to
> accessible devices. On Windows, we have IAccessible (1 and 2) and on Mac,
> we have the NS classes. For screen reader support, these native wrappers
> must be implemented and linked to the Java events. On linux, to my
> understanding, there is no universal standard. However, speech is easy on
> linux, so for a tool like Sodbeans, it's not hard to adjust.
>
> 2. When Interface events (e.g., button clicked, textbox typed in), this
> currently sends a message through the java subsystem only. As such, screen
> readers are never notified. The Java access bridge captures events like
> these and sends them down to the native classes, which send an event to
the
> accessible devices. For Java FX, I was able to find some information
saying
> that in open FX, people are working on a similar wrapper, but can find no
> information or source besides this.
>
> 3. Oracle is needed here only if we want to integrate whatever people come
> up with into the JDK. They are not needed otherwise, as we could build it
> all ourselves, I think. If we did get something working well, we would
have
> a much better chance of it getting integrated officially than if it were
on
> the drawing board.
>
> Stefik
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Andy B. <sonfire11@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> It will have to involve Oricle since they are the ones who ultimately
>> decide
>> what information gets "leaked".
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>> program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 8:07 AM
>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>>
>> Hi,
>> My limited understanding is that for the JAB to work, they had to poke a
>> hole to let the Java information out of the virtual machine, so the
>> screen
>> readers could see it. So there'd have to be some kind of way for this.
>> And
>> there has been a considerable amount of time and money spent by the
>> screen
>> reader vendors to try to get at the information the current bridge
>> supplies.
>> One thing to do is to step back and see exactly what the problems are,
>> before we come up with a solution. I'd say that we'd want to bring the
>> screen reader vendors to the table and see how we can craft a solution
>> that
>> would help them best. And also, we really need to see if any part of this
>> solution also needs to involve screen magnifier vendors. This could also
>> include vendors of input devices for people with motor disabilities.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>> program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Roger Woolgrove
>> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 10:18 PM
>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My knowledge of java is fairly limited and this looks like it could be a
>> sizeable project.
>> What I am wondering is whether classes/libraries can be built together in
>> a
>> package or as an add on that can be written to incorporate every screen
>> reader we could think of.
>> I know that this would essentially require classes to either be extended
>> from existing gui classes else built from scratch.  If either wer able to
>> be
>> done and we perhaps added a suffix like "SRA" to the class name, then
>> would
>> that make life easier for all including tutors that for accessible
>> software
>> you use the same classes just with the "screen reader accessible" prefix
>> as
>> given?
>> I am not sure at all how big the swing or swt or awt libraries are but I
>> suspect they are massive.
>> I suggest this idea as it makes sense to build on what is already there
>> and
>> I remember some of the earlier versions of the JAB were very
>> tempramentall
>> and this would not require the need for a separate installation.
>> Then again I could be talking out of a dark place as somewhere along the
>> line, the java ide needs to know about the screen reader.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Florian-achtige" <florianbeijers@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:37 PM
>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>>
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I find it sad that we even have to do this. Java is one of the most
>> > used languages in the world. Computer science courses teach it,
>> > Android breathes it, it's pretty much everywhere, as Oracle like to
>> > remind us. Why are we still , if this language is so universally used,
>> > allowing this blatant disregard for accessibility to continue? The
>> > Java Access Bridge has always been a pain to set up in the pre-Java 7
>> > days, and even with it working the applications that actually worked
>> > with it were semi-accessible at best. I wouldn't want to do too many
>> > complicated things using a Java app, you can be sure of that. JAB, at
>> > least to me, has always felt like an afterthought. Barely maintained
>> > unless it really couldn't be helped, very clunky and a genuine
>> > annoyance for developers who actually try implementing accessibility
>> > because it is so limited. If I ever have to write in Java, which this
>> > really discourages me from doing, I'd have to use the SWT toolkit
>> > because I just don't want to dive into the shark's pond JavaSwing is.
>> > Now this new GUI toolkit is apparently even worse. I guess the current
>> > Java Access Bridge will not work with those applications at all, and
>> > maybe in 5 years Oracle will take notice and write the absolute
>> > minimum to make screenreaders read out button labels .......again.
>> > I guess it's true what they say...: If you want it done right, you
>> > have to do it yourself.
>> >
>> > Just my thoughts on this whole situation I guess :)
>> >
>> > Florian
>> >
>> > 2013/12/6, Andreas Stefik <stefika@xxxxxxxxx>:
>> >> To my understanding, it probably is "not" a breach of 508, unless it
>> >> is
>> >> used for government applications. However, the rules are vague, as i'm
>> >> sure
>> >> everyone here knows, and I'm not a lawyer, nor have I looked into it
>> >> in
>> >> sufficient detail to give my professional opinion. This also isn't
>> >> just
>> >> Oracle, by any stretch of the imagination, and they are also stuck
>> >> with
>> >> Sun's legacy, so I don't think it's fair to blame them. I know a bunch
>> of
>> >> folks out there and I think many of the devs genuinely care.
>> >>
>> >> Regardless, Java is really popular and a vast array of apps are built
>> >> on
>> >> it. In my view, reinventing JAB would be worth the effort and it
>> "sounds"
>> >> like a number of folks here at least preliminarily agree. In my view,
>> the
>> >> first thing to do would be to hire a graduate student or two to work
>> half
>> >> time in a research lab, to explore what's possible. I'm pretty sure I
>> >> know
>> >> how to build many of the bindings and can direct a student on how to
>> >> invent
>> >> such a thing if we get the cash.
>> >>
>> >> Let me do a little more investigation after the holidays and I'll ask
>> >> some
>> >> partners, and other research groups, as well to see if there's
>> >> something
>> >> out there I don't know about.
>> >>
>> >> Stefik
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Corbett, James
>> >> <James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  I've always been interested in more money!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Jim C.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>> >>> program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Homme, James
>> >>> *Sent:* December 6, 2013 9:57 AM
>> >>>
>> >>> *To:* program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> *Subject:* [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm only just learning into the chapter about arrays, but if there is
>> >>> something I can do with my puny Java talent, or if I can help raise
>> >>> money,
>> >>> or write documentation, tell me. I definitely know I can write docs
>> >>> and
>> >>> test things, and I am willing to put in more work, more quickly, to
>> >>> try
>> >>> and
>> >>> come up to speed on more Java. This really is getting to me.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Jim
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>> >>> program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Roger Woolgrove
>> >>> *Sent:* Friday, December 06, 2013 8:20 AM
>> >>> *To:* program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> *Subject:* [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Steffik and all,
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Sounds like a plan though I have no idea on how much funding such a
>> >>> project might cost.
>> >>>
>> >>> A few ideas spring to mind regarding finding the funding but I guess
>> >>> we
>> >>> are some way off that so far.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Andreas Stefik <stefika@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>
>> >>> *To:* program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>
>> >>> *Sent:* Friday, December 06, 2013 7:09 AM
>> >>>
>> >>> *Subject:* [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I want to jump in here as I've talked to folks out at Oracle recently
>> at
>> >>> Java One. I don't know Oracle official policy by any stretch, but I
>> >>> was
>> >>> able to spend quite a bit of time with various engineers. To my
>> >>> understanding, the following is the current plan:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. I am unaware of any important accessibility changes in JDK8. If
>> there
>> >>> are some, they weren't really mentioned at Java One, or not much.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. The latest platform Oracle is pushing heavily is JavaFX, which is
>> the
>> >>> modern replacement for swing. The platform is extremely nice and
>> pushing
>> >>> it
>> >>> is justified in my view. However ...
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. JavaFX is less accessible than swing. I don't recall it working at
>> >>> all.
>> >>> One of the engineers I talked to at Java One this year said
>> >>> accessibility
>> >>> is not officially supported in JavaFX JDK7 and won't be in JDK 8
>> either.
>> >>>
>> >>> 4. Supposedly, one engineer (maybe a couple, I forget) is trying to
>> >>> finish
>> >>> basic support into JavaFX for JDK9. However, from our limited
>> >>> conversation,
>> >>> my impression is that it would have approximately the same
>> >>> limitations
>> >>> as
>> >>> current support into Swing and it wasn't clear whether it would get
>> >>> finished, and it wouldn't support any of the advanced features
>> >>> anyway.
>> I
>> >>> could be wrong, as I'm just not a JavaFX expert, but this was my
>> >>> impression. Even then, JDK9 is probably a few years away.
>> >>>
>> >>> My honest thinking about the JAB is that we should all band together
>> and
>> >>> write our own, open it up freely, and work on getting it adopted into
>> >>> the
>> >>> core, for each platform. My lab doesn't currently have funding to
>> >>> work
>> >>> on
>> >>> such a project, but if we could garner the financial support
>> >>> (somehow),
>> >>> I
>> >>> would be willing to help recruit and pay students or professional
>> >>> programmers through my university to help. Besides fixing about a
>> >>> million
>> >>> issues in Sodbeans by getting a better JAB and replacing some of our
>> >>> stock
>> >>> stuff, my honest opinion is that this really needs to be done and get
>> >>> integrated properly into the JDK core. If we can build it, and prove
>> >>> that
>> >>> it works, I bet we can make that happen.
>> >>>
>> >>> That's just my limited knowledge though. Perhaps others already know
>> >>> more
>> >>> than I do here.
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone else have thoughts?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Stefik
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Roger Woolgrove
>> >>> <rawoolgrove@xxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I hope not Jim, well at least partially.
>> >>> I have been using swing and building gui from scratch more or less
>> >>> with
>> >>> jaws.
>> >>> I am trying to work with vinux and orca but haven't tried java with
>> >>> the
>> >>> set up yet and hopefully swing will work with that, if not I think I
>> >>> might
>> >>> switch to paper and my perkins in future.
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corbett, James" <
>> >>> James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 2:52 PM
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>> Here's hope that SWT becomes the defacto GUI interface.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jim
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>> >>> program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Trouble
>> >>> Sent: December 5, 2013 9:46 AM
>> >>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>> That brings a thought to mind sense jaws barely
>> >>> has support for java as is. If they remove the
>> >>> JAB will that make it totally useless under jaws with java software?
>> >>>
>> >>> At 08:59 AM 12/5/2013, you wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Well I will agree with your comments on SWING,
>> >>> however aside from SWT there is no option for
>> >>> GUI desktops. ...by the way, you may have noticed
>> >>> that Oracle has bundled JAB into Java 7 with
>> >>> little to no support. Java 8 due out shortly has
>> >>> no mention of any JAB updates and it is rumoured
>> >>> that by Java 9 (18 - 24 months) the JAB will be deprecated.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jim
>> >>>
>> >>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy B.
>> >>> Sent: December 5, 2013 7:02 AM
>> >>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>> It's jab that needs to be ran, and swing is the old and out of date
>> >>> UI.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 2:26 AM
>> >>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi: Dont you need to run something like swing or
>> >>> whatever to have accessibility with java?
>> >>> I am not a java programmer so will only mention
>> >>> that that may have something to do with the problem.
>> >>> Perhaps the other reader has something built
>> >>> into it to read that statement but I just dont know.
>> >>> But I have seen allot of programmers mention
>> >>> using various accessibility software in
>> >>> conjunction with Linux and, I think, java
>> >>> programming to make their apps accessible - just
>> >>> a note as something I questioned when I read the post.
>> >>> Rick USA
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: <mailto:juanhernandez98@xxxxxxxxx>Juan Hernandez
>> >>> To: <mailto:program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:06 AM
>> >>> Subject: [program-l] can't read java dialog
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi All,
>> >>>
>> >>> In my class we are doing some java gui stuff.
>> >>>
>> >>> I had this really basic program
>> >>>
>> >>> In my main method,
>> >>>
>> >>> JOptionPane.showMessageDialog(null,"Welcome to Java!");
>> >>>
>> >>> I build this successfully, but there is nothing
>> >>> I can do to get Wineyes to read the dialog's
>> >>> text.  I load Jaws, and I can read it with no
>> >>> issues.  Can any of you Java coders read some
>> >>> text in this type of dialog with window-eyes?
>> >>>
>> >>> Best,
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>



--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx

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