[program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

  • From: "Roger Woolgrove" <rawoolgrove@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 21:11:31 -0000

Andy,

I'd say hang fire for now.  I think Andreas is our point man.  When the time 
comes we can discuss who and what.

Roger


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andy B. 
  To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 7:40 PM
  Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog


  What do you want me to do on this project?

   

   

  From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Andreas Stefik
  Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2013 2:17 PM
  To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

   

  My thinking on how to design such a tool is as follows:

  1. We can gather the events from the system to be sent to a screen reader 
easily in Java Swing. Sodbeans already has this code on the Java side and it 
works. We can rip it out easily into its own Jar. Additionally, the Sodbeans 
code has all sorts of custom code for grabbing additional information the 
current JAB can't grab, because we do it through a set of reflective 
interfaces. This sounds hard, but it's really easy, already done, and stable.

  2. The tricky part is getting information to the screen readers themselves. 
The way we do this on Sodbeans currently should not be used, because we route 
everything through a text to speech engine instead of through the OS specific 
mechanisms for screen readers. In some cases, we send info to specific screen 
readers specifically (e.g., equivalent of a JAWS script), but this is lame too, 
because writing screen reader specific code is too much work most of the time 
and a moving target, which has been a maintenance nightmare. JAB doesn't do 
this either. I assume they translate info down into OS specific commands on the 
native side. This could be a lot of work, but would only need to be done once 
for each OS. A Java layer could be on top that would provide a unified 
interface for it all OS's. In other words, this is the part where we would need 
help. There's no way I could do this alone and without funding.

  3. An extensibility layer. Tools like Sodbeans had to write our own backend 
because the JAB is highly not extensible. Whatever we did, it would be crucial 
that we allow events to be tossed down through the system, so NVDA, JAWS, Voice 
Over, ORCA, or whatever could get access to them in a completely screen reader 
neutral way, with no custom scripts or code from any one manufacturer. Making 
this part of the design could make tools like "Talking debuggers for Java" a 
reality.

  That's my $0.02. I'll ask Oracle if I can get the source.

  Stefik

   

   

  On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 4:10 AM, Andy B. <sonfire11@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

    No.

     

     

    From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George Bell
    Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2013 5:56 AM


    To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

     

    I guess Section 508 may well be weak, but surely there are organisation 
like NFB who could take up the case?

     

    George.

     

    From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas Stefik
    Sent: 06 December 2013 18:36
    To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

     

    To my understanding, it probably is "not" a breach of 508, unless it is 
used for government applications. However, the rules are vague, as i'm sure 
everyone here knows, and I'm not a lawyer, nor have I looked into it in 
sufficient detail to give my professional opinion. This also isn't just Oracle, 
by any stretch of the imagination, and they are also stuck with Sun's legacy, 
so I don't think it's fair to blame them. I know a bunch of folks out there and 
I think many of the devs genuinely care.

     

    Regardless, Java is really popular and a vast array of apps are built on 
it. In my view, reinventing JAB would be worth the effort and it "sounds" like 
a number of folks here at least preliminarily agree. In my view, the first 
thing to do would be to hire a graduate student or two to work half time in a 
research lab, to explore what's possible. I'm pretty sure I know how to build 
many of the bindings and can direct a student on how to invent such a thing if 
we get the cash.

     

    Let me do a little more investigation after the holidays and I'll ask some 
partners, and other research groups, as well to see if there's something out 
there I don't know about.

     

    Stefik

     

    On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Corbett, James 
<James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

    I've always been interested in more money!

     

    Jim C.

     

     

    From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
    Sent: December 6, 2013 9:57 AM


    To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

     

    Hi,

    I'm only just learning into the chapter about arrays, but if there is 
something I can do with my puny Java talent, or if I can help raise money, or 
write documentation, tell me. I definitely know I can write docs and test 
things, and I am willing to put in more work, more quickly, to try and come up 
to speed on more Java. This really is getting to me.

     

    Thanks.

     

    Jim

     

     

    From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Woolgrove
    Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:20 AM
    To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

     

    Hi Steffik and all,

     

    Sounds like a plan though I have no idea on how much funding such a project 
might cost.

    A few ideas spring to mind regarding finding the funding but I guess we are 
some way off that so far.

     

    Roger

     

     

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Andreas Stefik 

      To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

      Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:09 AM

      Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

       

      I want to jump in here as I've talked to folks out at Oracle recently at 
Java One. I don't know Oracle official policy by any stretch, but I was able to 
spend quite a bit of time with various engineers. To my understanding, the 
following is the current plan:

      1. I am unaware of any important accessibility changes in JDK8. If there 
are some, they weren't really mentioned at Java One, or not much.

      2. The latest platform Oracle is pushing heavily is JavaFX, which is the 
modern replacement for swing. The platform is extremely nice and pushing it is 
justified in my view. However ...

      3. JavaFX is less accessible than swing. I don't recall it working at 
all. One of the engineers I talked to at Java One this year said accessibility 
is not officially supported in JavaFX JDK7 and won't be in JDK 8 either.

      4. Supposedly, one engineer (maybe a couple, I forget) is trying to 
finish basic support into JavaFX for JDK9. However, from our limited 
conversation, my impression is that it would have approximately the same 
limitations as current support into Swing and it wasn't clear whether it would 
get finished, and it wouldn't support any of the advanced features anyway. I 
could be wrong, as I'm just not a JavaFX expert, but this was my impression. 
Even then, JDK9 is probably a few years away.

      My honest thinking about the JAB is that we should all band together and 
write our own, open it up freely, and work on getting it adopted into the core, 
for each platform. My lab doesn't currently have funding to work on such a 
project, but if we could garner the financial support (somehow), I would be 
willing to help recruit and pay students or professional programmers through my 
university to help. Besides fixing about a million issues in Sodbeans by 
getting a better JAB and replacing some of our stock stuff, my honest opinion 
is that this really needs to be done and get integrated properly into the JDK 
core. If we can build it, and prove that it works, I bet we can make that 
happen.

      That's just my limited knowledge though. Perhaps others already know more 
than I do here. 

      Anyone else have thoughts?


      Stefik

       

      On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Roger Woolgrove <rawoolgrove@xxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:

      I hope not Jim, well at least partially.
      I have been using swing and building gui from scratch more or less with 
jaws.
      I am trying to work with vinux and orca but haven't tried java with the 
set up yet and hopefully swing will work with that, if not I think I might 
switch to paper and my perkins in future.

      Roger


      ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corbett, James" 
<James.Corbett@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 2:52 PM 


      Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

      Here's hope that SWT becomes the defacto GUI interface.

      Jim

      -----Original Message-----
      From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Trouble
      Sent: December 5, 2013 9:46 AM
      To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

      That brings a thought to mind sense jaws barely
      has support for java as is. If they remove the
      JAB will that make it totally useless under jaws with java software?

      At 08:59 AM 12/5/2013, you wrote:

      Well I will agree with your comments on SWING,
      however aside from SWT there is no option for
      GUI desktops. ...by the way, you may have noticed
      that Oracle has bundled JAB into Java 7 with
      little to no support. Java 8 due out shortly has
      no mention of any JAB updates and it is rumoured
      that by Java 9 (18 - 24 months) the JAB will be deprecated.

      Jim

      From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy B.
      Sent: December 5, 2013 7:02 AM
      To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

      It's jab that needs to be ran, and swing is the old and out of date UI.


      From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
      Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 2:26 AM
      To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [program-l] Re: can't read java dialog

      Hi: Dont you need to run something like swing or
      whatever to have accessibility with java?
      I am not a java programmer so will only mention
      that that may have something to do with the problem.
      Perhaps the other reader has something built
      into it to read that statement but I just dont know.
      But I have seen allot of programmers mention
      using various accessibility software in
      conjunction with Linux and, I think, java
      programming to make their apps accessible - just
      a note as something I questioned when I read the post.
      Rick USA
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <mailto:juanhernandez98@xxxxxxxxx>Juan Hernandez
      To: <mailto:program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:06 AM
      Subject: [program-l] can't read java dialog

      Hi All,

      In my class we are doing some java gui stuff.

      I had this really basic program

      In my main method,

      JOptionPane.showMessageDialog(null,"Welcome to Java!");

      I build this successfully, but there is nothing
      I can do to get Wineyes to read the dialog's
      text.  I load Jaws, and I can read it with no
      issues.  Can any of you Java coders read some
      text in this type of dialog with window-eyes?

      Best,


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