Hi Helen I think my colony suffered last year when I put another box on top.
There had been a lot of dead and crawling bees outside the hive, some with
deformed wing virus, and on the web I read that deformed wing virus is a fault
of the beekeeper for not giving the bees enough room. I was afraid of breaking
comb if I separated the boxes to take them off one by one and put a new one in
at the bottom, so I put a new one on top. At the same time I took away the
insulation jacket round the outside. (Two changes, Paul). My bees swarmed and
then gradually declined in numbers. In the autumn I took the top box off. I
had seen the bees inspecting it through the window but they did not build.
There were so few bees that I did not replace the mouseguard when it fell off (
I think the insulation jacket had disturbed it) However the good end of the
story is that they seem to have recovered and are now flying in and out quite
busily:).
Mary
On 28 Mar 2020, at 12:23, Helen Nunn <helenmaynunn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Brilliant - thank you!
Helen
On Sat, 28 Mar 2020 at 12:07, Gareth John <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Helen
You’re welcome. The take away from my experiments is:
provided the bees have enough room to fully develop their broodnest in the
existing hive, which will vary by type of bee, but is likely to be around 3
to 4 Warré boxes
and provided there is sealed honey at the top of all the combs in the hive
a super of approximately 1/5th the volume of the hive can be added to the
top of the hive without causing disturbance.
Gareth
________________________________
In the nothingness, the heart of the world has space to spin, has silence to
sing: L Vaughan-Lee
On 28 Mar 2020, at 10:39, Helen Nunn <helenmaynunn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi again
Huge thanks, Gareth, for taking the time to explain so fully. I will have
to digest it gradually in order to decide what to do! But it seems I should
follow the Abbe's method, borne out by your experience/experiments and
nadir.
Thanks again
Helen
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 at 21:25, Gareth John <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi
Long post.
First some bee biology.
Bees have evolved over many millions of years to build their comb (the
fixed part of the superorganism) in cavities. For many reasons (eg heat
rises) comb is built from the top of the cavity downwards. The top of
natural cavities is fixed; it does not move. Hence, in natural conditions,
no bee has ever come across a situation where space suddenly appears above
the top of the combs. One could reasonable expect that, were this to
happen, the bees might well get more than a little freaked out. Yet this
is exactly what beekeepers do as a matter of course. Firstly, it’s easier
to put boxes on the top of a pile rather than at the bottom. Secondly,
the reaction of the bees is to fill that space as quickly as possible, by
building comb and filling it with brood, honey, pollen etc. In other
words, the bees seek to recreate the nest arrangement that was there
before the space appeared. BUT beekeepers want honey, so they place a
physical barrier in the way which prevents the nurse bees accompanying the
queen up to the new space. Hence the bees respond to the "empty attic" by
filling it with honey. The beekeeper thinks this is wonderful, little
realising that this is a stress response.
Dear old Abbé Warré realised at least some of this when he developed hives
in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Hence the concept of nadiring, or
adding boxes below rather than above. One might reasonably assume that
bees would be less sensitive to new space suddenly appearing below the
colony than they would be to space appearing above. This may be so, or it
may not. But that is perhaps for another day.
With all this in mind, and after conversations with Torben Schiffer the
German researcher (who coined the phrase "empty attic"), I have been
experimenting for a couple of seasons to see if I can answer the following
question: is there any volume one can add to the top of the hive that does
not cause the bees to respond by thinking the attic is empty and entering
into the stress response of reconfiguring the internal arrangement of the
colony?
Ideally, the bees would leave the brood nest exactly as it is and just
store honey in the newly added super when the main body of the hive is
full. I have been working with Golden Hives, not Warrés, but the
principles seem pretty clear
I have used two variants of hive, one which holds 12 combs and one which
holds 8 combs. The 8 comb variant has exactly the same cross section as a
Warré, whereas the cross section of the 12 comb hive is like a Warré with
an additional half box on the side. The depth of the main hive in both
variants is 485mm. The volume of the 12 comb hive body is roughly equal
to 3 ½ Warré boxes. The 8 comb variant comes in at roughly 2 ⅓ Warré
boxes. I say "roughly" not because I can’t do the sums but because I see
no point in getting into considerations of whether one measures the volume
externally or internally to the frames. For me, that falls under the
label "false exactitude".
Just before the start of the main honey flow (ie about the first week in
June) I added a super to several of each hive variant. The super is 100mm
deep. On the small variant, this is a volume of half a Warré box. On the
large variant the super has a volume of about 3/4 of a Warré box. I am
thus adding about 1/5th to both the volume and height of the hives. Both
supers have frames in them which have bottom bars but no foundation. Comb
guides are minimal and of the line of wax type. These are on both the top
and bottom of the frames; because I find that bees often build in such
supers from the bottom upward. If there is no bottom bar, one ends up
with comb in the super that is attached to the top bar of the box below.
Results
In both hives the bees take up to a couple of weeks to discover the extra
space. I see this as a good thing. It means there is no panic caused by
empty attic syndrome; ie the bees do not feel worried that the attic is
empty. What happens is that a few bees discover the space, probably comb
building bees rather than nurse bees, and comb is built at a relaxed pace.
It is then filled with honey which is ultimately capped. I have seen no
tendency for brood to be put in the supers. BUT one has to remember that,
when the supers are put on, the tops of all the combs in the main hive
body contain capped honey. Nurse bees and queens generally will not cross
capped honey; they see it as marking the limit of the brood nest. The
result is a super full of capped honey in new, clean comb. If there is
not capped honey at the tops of all the combs, I would expect the brood
nest to expand upward into the super.
Is there a difference between the two hive variants? Most definitely. In
the smaller hives the bees do rearrange the brood nest. They don’t expand
it into the super but they do expand it in the main hive body, so that the
super becomes the main honey store with little honey left in the hive
body. Hence, if one harvested the super, one would be taking most of the
hive’s honey. Last year, I found that honey was stored in the hive body
towards the end of the season which meant that, by late September, the
super was indeed surplus to immediate requirements and could be harvested.
But this might not be the case in all seasons. Hence the small hive
variant does not avoid the need to exercise judgement when harvesting.
By contrast, in the large hive variant, the bees still had ample honey in
the main hive body throughout the season. So when the super was full it
could be harvested without worry.
The reason for the difference between the two hives is, I suspect, one of
brood nest volume. The smaller hive variant, at 2 1/3rd Warré box
equivalents is perhaps not quire big enough to satisfy the full potential
of the bees in terms of brood nest development. Hence, before the super
is added, the bees are somewhat constrained. After the super is added, I
suspect that, as space becomes available in the main hive body due to
honey close to the brood area being consumed this space is filled with
brood and new nectar is placed in the super. In the larger hive, of 3 ½
Warré box equivalents, I suspect the brood area is already at a maximum
and there is no pressure to expand it.
It is important to note here that different strains of bees have different
sized brood nests. The bees in my hives have relatively small brood
nests. So the larger variant of hive is plenty big enough. One hears of
cases where Golden Hives need more than 12 combs to accommodate a fully
grown colony. The same principles would apply, however; ensure that the
volume prior to adding the super is adequate. In the smaller variant I
have tested, this condition may not quite be satisfied.
As to Warrés, I have given the Warré equivalent volumes, so you can make a
comparison. I would suggest 3 Warré boxes and then add a super that is
half depth if possible. A full sized box added to the top of a 3 box
stack might trigger the empty attic response. On an existing four box
stack one may well get away with adding a full sized empty box to the top.
In fact, I have done this more than once in prior years and it was fine,
except that I had only top bars in the boxes, so harvesting was messy, as
the comb was attached to the top bars in the box below.
Hope this all helps and does not just confuse matters.
Gareth
________________________________
In the nothingness, the heart of the world has space to spin, has silence
to sing: L Vaughan-Lee
On 27 Mar 2020, at 12:56, Helen Nunn <helenmaynunn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Paul. Look forward to Gareth's input! Yours was v helpful, as
always.
All the best
Helen
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 at 12:44, Oxnatbees <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It's your call. I can offer some insights on alternatives.
A more elegant solution - if it works - would be to add the box on top
without a Queen Excluder, relying on the fact that queens don't cross
honey, and there will be arcs of honey above the extant brood.
If you do go for a QE, get a plastic one you can cut to size, because it
will be made for a National which is bigger.
Bear in mind that you will cool the 2nd box, the one full of brood, by
adding a space (box) above. The bees will need to work harder (need more
forage to burn) to keep the brood warm. But Warres are well insulated.
The 2nd box would then be a permanent brood area, and one principle of
the Warre hive is that boxes with old comb gradually migrate up the
stack until harvested full of honey. My gut feeling is that old comb is
good, and of course when you harvest honey from a (normal) Warre in
re-purposed brood comb, it is full of cocoons, which makes it trickier
to process, so I'm not sure if I'm arguing for or against adding a box
on top here!
Let's hope Gareth has an opinion and we can all nod and say "yes I was
going to say that".
I'm not trying it this year because my Big Change this year is orienting
my comb cold way. Change one factor at a time or you don't know why
stuff happens.
Paul
