Yes Lucy, Ditto for me I’ve been thinking how much I appreciate these little
breaks to the, now normal, stress and worry. Not bee related, but small joys
in these troubled times, when walking the canal on my daily exercise this
morning much of the water was clear which I have never seen in my 44 years and
I could see shoals of fish! All different kinds! So beautiful.
Thanks to you all,
Karen
Karen Giles
Senior Design Engineer
Black Dog Design Ltd
t: 07790 908144
e:karen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 28 Mar 2020, at 12:54, Lucy Coats <lucy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thank you so much, Gareth. Even though I’m going to have to put off getting
hives now till next spring, this is so helpful to add to my growing pile of
information. I’d just like to say that the shared wisdom of this group is a
marvellous thing, and though I don’t comment often, I am so grateful to you
all, especially in these difficult times for us all. It is a reminder that
nature and bees don’t care about what affects us, but go about their
miraculous work of creation despite us. It cheers me up every time a bee
email pops up in my inbox.
Best wishes to all of you.
Lucyx
On 27 Mar 2020, at 21:25, Gareth John (Redacted sender grjohn for DMARC)
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi
Long post.
First some bee biology.
Bees have evolved over many millions of years to build their comb (the fixed
part of the superorganism) in cavities. For many reasons (eg heat rises)
comb is built from the top of the cavity downwards. The top of natural
cavities is fixed; it does not move. Hence, in natural conditions, no bee
has ever come across a situation where space suddenly appears above the top
of the combs. One could reasonable expect that, were this to happen, the
bees might well get more than a little freaked out. Yet this is exactly
what beekeepers do as a matter of course. Firstly, it’s easier to put boxes
on the top of a pile rather than at the bottom. Secondly, the reaction of
the bees is to fill that space as quickly as possible, by building comb and
filling it with brood, honey, pollen etc. In other words, the bees seek to
recreate the nest arrangement that was there before the space appeared. BUT
beekeepers want honey, so they place a physical barrier in the way which
prevents the nurse bees accompanying the queen up to the new space. Hence
the bees respond to the "empty attic" by filling it with honey. The
beekeeper thinks this is wonderful, little realising that this is a stress
response.
Dear old Abbé Warré realised at least some of this when he developed hives
in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Hence the concept of nadiring, or
adding boxes below rather than above. One might reasonably assume that bees
would be less sensitive to new space suddenly appearing below the colony
than they would be to space appearing above. This may be so, or it may not.
But that is perhaps for another day.
With all this in mind, and after conversations with Torben Schiffer the
German researcher (who coined the phrase "empty attic"), I have been
experimenting for a couple of seasons to see if I can answer the following
question: is there any volume one can add to the top of the hive that does
not cause the bees to respond by thinking the attic is empty and entering
into the stress response of reconfiguring the internal arrangement of the
colony?
Ideally, the bees would leave the brood nest exactly as it is and just store
honey in the newly added super when the main body of the hive is full. I
have been working with Golden Hives, not Warrés, but the principles seem
pretty clear
I have used two variants of hive, one which holds 12 combs and one which
holds 8 combs. The 8 comb variant has exactly the same cross section as a
Warré, whereas the cross section of the 12 comb hive is like a Warré with an
additional half box on the side. The depth of the main hive in both
variants is 485mm. The volume of the 12 comb hive body is roughly equal to
3 ½ Warré boxes. The 8 comb variant comes in at roughly 2 ⅓ Warré boxes. I
say "roughly" not because I can’t do the sums but because I see no point in
getting into considerations of whether one measures the volume externally or
internally to the frames. For me, that falls under the label "false
exactitude".
Just before the start of the main honey flow (ie about the first week in
June) I added a super to several of each hive variant. The super is 100mm
deep. On the small variant, this is a volume of half a Warré box. On the
large variant the super has a volume of about 3/4 of a Warré box. I am thus
adding about 1/5th to both the volume and height of the hives. Both supers
have frames in them which have bottom bars but no foundation. Comb guides
are minimal and of the line of wax type. These are on both the top and
bottom of the frames; because I find that bees often build in such supers
from the bottom upward. If there is no bottom bar, one ends up with comb in
the super that is attached to the top bar of the box below.
Results
In both hives the bees take up to a couple of weeks to discover the extra
space. I see this as a good thing. It means there is no panic caused by
empty attic syndrome; ie the bees do not feel worried that the attic is
empty. What happens is that a few bees discover the space, probably comb
building bees rather than nurse bees, and comb is built at a relaxed pace.
It is then filled with honey which is ultimately capped. I have seen no
tendency for brood to be put in the supers. BUT one has to remember that,
when the supers are put on, the tops of all the combs in the main hive body
contain capped honey. Nurse bees and queens generally will not cross capped
honey; they see it as marking the limit of the brood nest. The result is a
super full of capped honey in new, clean comb. If there is not capped honey
at the tops of all the combs, I would expect the brood nest to expand upward
into the super.
Is there a difference between the two hive variants? Most definitely. In
the smaller hives the bees do rearrange the brood nest. They don’t expand
it into the super but they do expand it in the main hive body, so that the
super becomes the main honey store with little honey left in the hive body.
Hence, if one harvested the super, one would be taking most of the hive’s
honey. Last year, I found that honey was stored in the hive body towards
the end of the season which meant that, by late September, the super was
indeed surplus to immediate requirements and could be harvested. But this
might not be the case in all seasons. Hence the small hive variant does not
avoid the need to exercise judgement when harvesting.
By contrast, in the large hive variant, the bees still had ample honey in
the main hive body throughout the season. So when the super was full it
could be harvested without worry.
The reason for the difference between the two hives is, I suspect, one of
brood nest volume. The smaller hive variant, at 2 1/3rd Warré box
equivalents is perhaps not quire big enough to satisfy the full potential of
the bees in terms of brood nest development. Hence, before the super is
added, the bees are somewhat constrained. After the super is added, I
suspect that, as space becomes available in the main hive body due to honey
close to the brood area being consumed this space is filled with brood and
new nectar is placed in the super. In the larger hive, of 3 ½ Warré box
equivalents, I suspect the brood area is already at a maximum and there is
no pressure to expand it.
It is important to note here that different strains of bees have different
sized brood nests. The bees in my hives have relatively small brood nests.
So the larger variant of hive is plenty big enough. One hears of cases
where Golden Hives need more than 12 combs to accommodate a fully grown
colony. The same principles would apply, however; ensure that the volume
prior to adding the super is adequate. In the smaller variant I have
tested, this condition may not quite be satisfied.
As to Warrés, I have given the Warré equivalent volumes, so you can make a
comparison. I would suggest 3 Warré boxes and then add a super that is half
depth if possible. A full sized box added to the top of a 3 box stack might
trigger the empty attic response. On an existing four box stack one may
well get away with adding a full sized empty box to the top. In fact, I
have done this more than once in prior years and it was fine, except that I
had only top bars in the boxes, so harvesting was messy, as the comb was
attached to the top bars in the box below.
Hope this all helps and does not just confuse matters.
Gareth
________________________________
In the nothingness, the heart of the world has space to spin, has silence to
sing: L Vaughan-Lee
On 27 Mar 2020, at 12:56, Helen Nunn <helenmaynunn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Paul. Look forward to Gareth's input! Yours was v helpful, as always.
All the best
Helen
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 at 12:44, Oxnatbees <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It's your call. I can offer some insights on alternatives.
A more elegant solution - if it works - would be to add the box on top
without a Queen Excluder, relying on the fact that queens don't cross
honey, and there will be arcs of honey above the extant brood.
If you do go for a QE, get a plastic one you can cut to size, because it
will be made for a National which is bigger.
Bear in mind that you will cool the 2nd box, the one full of brood, by
adding a space (box) above. The bees will need to work harder (need more
forage to burn) to keep the brood warm. But Warres are well insulated.
The 2nd box would then be a permanent brood area, and one principle of the
Warre hive is that boxes with old comb gradually migrate up the stack
until harvested full of honey. My gut feeling is that old comb is good,
and of course when you harvest honey from a (normal) Warre in re-purposed
brood comb, it is full of cocoons, which makes it trickier to process, so
I'm not sure if I'm arguing for or against adding a box on top here!
Let's hope Gareth has an opinion and we can all nod and say "yes I was
going to say that".
I'm not trying it this year because my Big Change this year is orienting
my comb cold way. Change one factor at a time or you don't know why stuff
happens.
Paul
