[oxnatbees] Re: Feeding bees
- From: "Gareth John" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender "grjohn" for DMARC)
- To: oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 23:43:29 +0100
Remember, the honey (carbohydrate) the bees consume over winter turns into
lots of CO2 + H2O.
Around 10 litres in a Warré according to David Heaf. That’s a watering can
full.
Gareth
On 21 Sep 2020, at 21:54, Oxnatbees <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Karen asks re: her TBH -
I have moved the follower board up to the last half built bar and put some
insulation behind the follower.
Moving the follower board is the right thing to do for this small colony.
Putting insulation in the volume behind the follower may give problems
though. We did this one year: we packed that section with scrunched-up
newspaper. When we opened the hive in Spring, the paper was mouldy, and had
quite a lot of dead bees in it - it was not clear if they would have died
anyway, or just got lost in the balls of newspaper. Anyway since then we have
left that section as an empty volume, and not had a problem with mould. I
feel it is important to ensure air can circulate in this unused area to
prevent condensation and mould. Remember, the honey (carbohydrate) the bees
consume over winter turns into lots of CO2 + H2O.
Zuzana asks:
I have never managed to open the brood nest (the first 6 bars from the
entrance). As this is year 3 ... should I be getting the "old" 3 year old
comb out of the hive next year (perhaps by shifting those combs away from
the entrance and adding empty bars in front of them?)?
Leave it alone 8)
You need to ask what this would achieve. Old brood comb is an asset to the
colony because:
It is saturated with propolis, so is antiseptic for raising brood;
It has been built right to the edges of the hive and this reduces draughts.
Which means the bees can control their temperature better in winter. The
practise of cutting every frame free and regularly pulling it out is Bad. Why
do you think the bees keep attaching it back to the walls?! 8)
If you were pouring in chemicals like miticides, then maybe they would
accumulate in brood comb and cause a problem.
In pre-varroa texts, beekeepers say "old brood comb is an asset." They talk
of 20 year old comb, black as pitch.
High-intervention beekeepers are obsessed with monitoring every frame and
interfering. I came across a phrase on a beekeeping blog recently: "Trust is
good. Control is better." I thought it summarised such methods quite well.
Personally I think the bees have more experience than me so I trust them.
Paul
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 21:11, Zuzana Meryova <zuzanameryova@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:zuzanameryova@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
For example history of my TBH:
swarm hived in June 2018 with 6 bars. By August 8 bars were built (I gave
them 12 bars) and that's it. I haven't opened it since until next May 2019
nothing really happened in May 2019, 9 full bars in June, 12 full bars in
July (I gave them 15 bars) and again that's it until next season
15 full bars in April 2020, 18 bars in 2nd of May and 20 bars mid May, I've
also opened the hive once in June and once in July but there was not much
more room, so I decided not to add any more bars and this is it until next
year again.
I do have a question:
I have never managed to open the brood nest (the first 6 bars from the
entrance). As this is year 3 ... should I be getting the "old" 3 year old
comb out of the hive next year (perhaps by shifting those combs away from the
entrance and adding empty bars in front of them?)?
Thank you.
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 19:03, Oxnatbees <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I find that the last place they put honey is next to the cold window, so they
have more than you think!
Paul
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020, 18:55 Karen Giles, <karen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:karen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Ooh I'm glad we are discussing feeding as I have been quite tempted.
I had a quick look in my TBH yesterday, this was a swarm from this year that
has settled well, superseded after about a month but after a prolific start
hasn't really built any comb for a while. I didn't remove any bars yesterday
due to the fact that they have done a bit of a cross comb with their last
bar. It doesn't look insurmountable to remove it but I decided I will leave
it for this year as it is part full of honey and I don't want them to lose it
by my mishandling. My real worry is just whether they have enough stores.
There are 15.5 bars with built comb on, the last 2 definitely have honey in
right up to the window but it's hard to tell whether it's brood or honey in
the rest as they are much darker comb. I tried hefting the other day and
it's definitely not a sack of potatoes! They are still very busy and plenty
of pollen is going in.
One more thing that I hope is the right thing to do. I have moved the
follower board up to the last half built bar and put some insulation behind
the follower.
I would love your thoughts.
Best
Karen
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 18:23, Gareth John <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Most interesting about the HMF levels, heating and acidification.
Nettle tea has a good write up in the literature should anyone feel it
appropriate to feed. Make the syrup with an infusion of nettles (a good
handful steeped in boiling water) rather than with plain water. In view of
Paul’s comments best to let the water cool before adding sugar (plain white).
Gareth
On 21 Sep 2020, at 14:06, Juli Cohen <juliane.cohen@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:juliane.cohen@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thank you, Paul. That’s really interesting.
I also have no intention of feeding our bees. We took the top box off both
our Warrés for us, and there is plenty of honey in the second box for the
bees. Plus they are still busily foraging in the lovely weather we’ve been
having. They’re particularly enjoying the caryopteris and dahlias at the
moment.
Juli
On 21 Sep 2020, at 13:58, Zuzana Meryova <zuzanameryova@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:zuzanameryova@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thank you Paul, just to say, this is my third beekeeping season and I do
not feed (strictly) - Im very stubborn about it. I really believe feeding
makes bees ill.
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 13:37, Oxnatbees <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi folks,
This time of year, people often talk about feeding bees sugar syrup. My
views here have changed.
In the past I have followed BBKA recommendations and poured syrup into
feeders until the bees had 20kg of stores; eventually I realised this is
"worst case requirement" and I do not live in Scotland, or a forage-poor
area, or have vast colonies with excessive numbers from stimulating their
laying and buying over-fecund queens. In fact my colonies get through
winter with something like a quarter of the stores the BBKA suggests, and
they seem to gather enough themselves. So for a couple of years I have not
fed them at all.
But if you do decide to feed, what should you feed them?
Well one golden rule is don't feed them honey from another apiary, because
of the risk of transmitting spores of nasty things.
In general the advice is strong sugar syrup, heated to ensure you dissolve
as much sugar as possible; plus various additives, lemon juice is often
mentioned. I have discovered this is bad advice.
I attach a couple of research papers. To summarise:
If you heat sugars you make small quantities of the chemical HMF, which is
present in honey at low levels but bad for bees in high levels. Dissolving
sugar in water at 50C is probably not a problem but the amount of HMF
increases exponentially with increasing temperature and many recipes
recommend boiling the syrup. Don't boil it!!!
If you add lemon juice the acidity is unpredictable - depending on many
factors such as the ripeness of the lemons. Honey's pH is around 3.4 to 6.1
but lemon juice can reduce the syrup to between 2 - 3. That's very acidic
indeed and does not do the bees' guts any good.
Both these factors severely impact bee lifetime.
Mirjanic et als' key findings after 3 years' tests:
Diet
Average life of bees (days)
Comments
Honey
27
Sugar syrup
22
Acid inverted syrup
12
They used tartaric acid rather than lemon juice. I've added vitamin C to
syrup in the past - also called ascorbic acid - it probably does the same
thing.
(They tested a wider range of diets and found adding brewers' yeast, and
enzymatically inverting the sugar, somewhat ameliorated the hits to
lifespan.)
The other paper is focused on HMF levels (boiling, lemon juice) and shows
similar dramatic life expectancy problems with syrups, albeit a bit
trickier to summarise in a simple chart.
The bottom line here is -
if you do decide to feed your bees, don't boil the syrup and don't add any
kind of acid;
most recipes, including those I myself have recommended in the past, are
not based on evidence-based research.
Paul
P.S. you also see adverts for supplements and pollen substitutes. These
should not be required in Britain, where the bees and plants have
co-evolved, though there are areas like New Zealand where the bees have
difficulty finding certain amino acids in native plants' pollen. They are
sometimes commercially useful to large bee farmers who force their colonies
to breed early, in late winter when there is little pollen around. In their
case they have hundreds of hives in one spot and use early, large colonies
to pollinate orchards, etc. None of us have vast numbers of hives and they
are all static, and we tend to leave most of the honey in the hives, so
ignore such advertisements and remember, the wild colonies do quite well
without them!
--
Karen Giles
Senior Design Engineer
Black Dog Design Ltd
t: 07790 908144
e:karen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:e%3Akaren@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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